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Re-installing the front suspension

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Problem solved. I was able to tighten the regular nuts enough to pull them tight, and then switch to the nylocks. Tom H gave me a call and had what I believe was the correct diagnosis, which I am posting here for anyone else who reads this before reassembling their suspension. I hadn't carefully cleaned the tapered ends of the ball joints and the corresponding holes in the axle carrier and there was almost certainly grease on them when I started. That probably prevented them from properly seating and was the cause of my problem.

I have a little more painting and assembly to do, then it is time to put everything back on the car. Unfortunately, I have to leave town tomorrow, so it will be next weekend before I can get back to it. Hopefully, I will be able to finish and have the car back on the road (although no doubt in need of a wheel alignment prior to its inspection) by this time next Sunday! More to follow, I am sure.
 

65beam

Donation Time
suspension

jim,
it's best not to tighten the nuts on the upper and lower fulcrum pins until the car is on the ground.
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
I'd suggest holding the Joint tight in place and hit it on underside(not bolt) with a hammer in an attempt to "set" it in place so that you can tighten the nut.

I've done it before and it always worked for me.

Best of wishes on the car,
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
For the first time in several months, my SV has a suspension! I am not ready to break out the Champaign yet, but let me first describe how I got it back in place on my own, since that is not the easiest job in the world.

I started by trying to lift it up with a jack in the middle of the crossmember, but there was no way to balance it properly, so I switched to plan B, which was a tip from the Classic Tiger website that was posted here a few years ago: http://classictiger.com/techtips/xmember.html This is a good tip and recommended, but I think it only works properly if you are just installing the crossmember and haven't yet re-attached the A-arms and stub axles. (Which, by the way, is the way I will do it the next time. I think it would be a lot easier that way and balance out the advantages of doing it the assembly at workbench height.)

The rope trick was good for getting it roughly in place, but it didn't balance properly and I had to use a combination of jacks and jackstands to keep it roughly level. (I think having two small jacks at each end might have made it much easier, but one of my small jacks is currently in NY and the other is currently holding the engine in place.) I just made small adjustments at a time, pulling one rope and tying it off, then adjusting the jack/jackstand and going to the other side. I did make one change from the Tiger tech tip. I tried to do it by tying knots in the rope near the wood blocks, but that was too difficult to do alone. So, I wrapped the rope around the corner braces and tied them off that way, which worked well. I eventually got it close enough on each side that I could then put a rear bolt in. (I used Mike Phillips' hint of tying a piece of dental floss around the bolt, which was unnecessary in this case, but certainly could have been a lifesaver if needed.) I put in both rear bolts, leaving about a 1/4 inch gap, then removed the rope and put in the fronts. Piece of cake! This seems to me like it would be a simple three man job, or a difficult two man job. It was a pain in the ass one man job, but the rope trick made it possible.

So, so far so good. But, before I move on, I want to be sure the suspension was correctly assembled. I don't remember exactly how it looked installed before I started, but the upper A-arm sits at quite an angle relative to the inner fender. The rear end is almost touching and the front is an inch and away. It was hard to show in a photo, but here are a couple:







This last photo shows the wood block (1" thick) I used with the rope lift resting comfortably behind the front side of the A-arm.

I looked at my S3 and it looks roughly the same, although the suspension is a different design and I don't know if it is correct either, since I didn't install it.

Is this right? Is it possible I have the A-arms on the wrong sides?

Thanks.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
I spent a little time in the garage this morning, tidying up a few things and studying the front end a little more. I am fairly sure it is correct, but want to be sure before I do too much more.

One thing I should add is that this suspension (came from my '67 parts car) and originally had a couple of camber adjusting shims on each side, while my cars' original suspension had four on one side and five on the other. I transferred those over to the rebuilt suspension, but have no way yet of knowing if that is correct. I do know that removing one or two from each side would move the A-arm away from the inner fender. I know each car is individual, as presumably is each suspension, so I wouldn't be surprised if what was right for the original suspension is now way out for the other.

Still, can someone please go look at their car and confirm that the front of the top fulcrum pin should sit about an inch further away from the inner fender than the back? Thanks.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Sounds about right. They are nowhere close to the same front/rear. If you are concerned about the A-arms, if the slots for the stabilizer bar are in front, they are correct.

My parts car had good camber with 4 or so shims in place. The best I can do with the driver is zero on one side and one on the other. Even then, it has only about a half (maybe less) degree of camber.

You can get the camber set very close, using no more than a carpenters square and a flat floor.

I have a cheap transmission jack from HF. Makes removing/installing a crossmember very easy. I maintain it is probably a very crappy transmission jack, but an incredibly handy thing to have while working on cars.

Bill
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Thanks, Bill. I was never worried about the lower arms, but did just go check them just to be safe. The slots were in the right place. The uppers should be fine too, although I am sorry now that I didn't torque the fulcrum pins before putting it back on, as the back ends are too close to the wall to get a socket on them. I'll get a little more room by room by removing a few shims and probably end up using a crow's foot on the end of my torque wrench. I know that will add a few pounds to the torque, but doubt that little bit of extra distance is going to make a significant difference.

Good to know about the carpenter's square. I will definitely want to get it close before taking it to be formally adjusted. I have everything set at the same time as I get it inspected. I'm going to buy new tires, too. The old ones are still like new, but they are about 10 years old, so it is time for them to go.

Unfortunately, it is now time for me to get back on an airplane, so everything will have to sit one more week. Hopefully, by this time next Sunday it will be all done! All that is left is to replace the wheel bearings (they look like new, but I figure 'while I'm at it...') and the track rod ends. They are fine too, but once again, while I am at it...
 

Mike O'D

Gold Level Sponsor
Jim,

I believe the fulcrum pins on later cars with rubber bushings need to be loose until the weight of the car is on them and then tightened with the weight still on them. Check with Tom H. on the forum - he has posted about it before.

Mike
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Thanks for the reminder, Mike. For some reason, I always thought Tom was talking about the lower A-arms only, but that wouldn't really make any sense and on re-reading Tom's posts I assume I do have to tighten both under load. I'll just have to remove all of the shims until after I have torqued down the nuts. I'll then use Bill's carpenter's square suggestion to get them as close as I can for the drive to get it professionally set. Looking forward to getting this all done, hopefully this weekend!
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Yup, all eight rubber bushings need to be loose until tightened with full weight on the wheels.

But regarding the shims, my thinking would be to leave the shims as they were on THAT CROSSMEMBER. I'm far from an expert on wheel alignment, but it seems to me that most of the variation that the shims are compensating for are variations that occur primarily within the crossmember, upper and lower A-Frames, ball joints, fulcrum pins, etc. Yes, there is further variation in how the crossmember attaches to the body, but it just seems to me that there is less difference there than in the rest of the assembly. Probably does not make a lot of difference since the alignment process will take care of it all,.

Tom
 

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Crossmember

Yup, all eight rubber bushings need to be loose until tightened with full weight on the wheels.

But regarding the shims, my thinking would be to leave the shims as they were on THAT CROSSMEMBER. I'm far from an expert on wheel alignment, but it seems to me that most of the variation that the shims are compensating for are variationsent will tak that occur primarily within the crossmember, upper and lower A-Frames, ball joints, fulcrum pins, etc. Yes, there is further variation in how the crossmember attaches to the body, but it just seems to me that there is less difference there than in the rest of the assembly. nProbably does not make a lot of difference since the alignment process will take care of it all,.

Tom

The shims are there to preset castor.Do not think that an alignment can take care of it if removed.the manual says castor cannot be set if shims are damaged or removed.It also,says castor cannot be adjusted.Castor can be adjusted at the upper A arm mounts but the crossmember shims must be in place or you will never get the correct settings.This of course does not mean a damaged front end can be simply aligned after repaired.I do my own alignment on the 2 Sunbeams and the 29 Ford Model,A
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Crossmember Shims?

Chuck, are you referring to the two shims about 2" wide (one on each side) between the crossmember and the frame?

Thanks,
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Yes, Dan, it's pretty clear that Chuck is talking about the big wedges between the crossmember and the frame, which set the caster. But I was referring the the camber shims on the upper A-Frame fulcrum pins. Jim said he took the shims from his original front end assembly and moved them to the new assembly. My thinking is that you should keep shims as is in the newer assembly as a starting point, thinking that most of the variation the shims are adjusting for are contained WITHIN the assembly.

And yes, Chuck, I'm sure ( or I sure hope) Jim did install the big wedges between the crossmember and the frame. And I hope he pointed them the right way!

Tom
 

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
OK here it is
The large shim that fits the crossmember is a factory preset castor shim And is not adjustable
The shims at the upper A arms are for camber.The manual says this is fact.In reality it is so far from the truth it is not so.Double hole shims will adjust cambor.Single hole shims are used to set castor at the upper A arm.If I,remember the rear bolt with shims will give positive castor and the front will give negative castor

Now you know how easy it is to adjust for an alignment
 
Last edited:

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Got it on the camber shims, and no, I didn't forget to re-install the castor shims. Facing the right way! Thanks. On to the next challenge.

I am thinking ahead to Saturday, when I will be tackling my last challenge before bolting everything up for good: the tie rod ends. I decided to replace all four of them while everything was easy to access. Disconnecting the lower ones from the suspension was covered earlier in this thread. Those are still disconnected, so no problem there. Any tips on getting the upper ones loose?

And, any general thoughts on the best process to follow when doing all four?

Thanks.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Fulcrum Pin Nuts

My SV is sitting on four wheels for the first time in months! I'll add a few lessons learned later, but first I have an immediate question. I have been warned many times not to tighten the fulcrum pin nuts until I have the weight of the car on the suspension. So, I am ready to do that, only I don't a torque setting in the WSM. Is there a specific torque value I should aim for, or is it just Tight!
 

65beam

Donation Time
suspension

jim,
bounce the front of the car to settle everything in before you tighten the fulcrum pins. a lesson I learned from an old guy that has worked on my cars. snug them tight but no torque figures that I've ever seen.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Thanks, Bob. The nuts are tight and the car is sitting on four wheels for the first time in months. Everything is back together except for the anti sway bar and the wheels have an eyeball alignment and approximate camber adjustment. The day went fairly well, with only one hiccup and one important lesson to pass on. The hiccup was discovering the lock washers for the crossmember bolts, right after I had torqued them down and removed the 'safety strings' I had tied to each. And, of course, with the strings gone I lost one bolt inside the crossmember. I was able to grab it with a magnet and get back on my way, but did lose a little time over the snafu.

The important less on was learning how easy it is to remove track rod ends using a tie rod puller, as Rich Vose had recommended earlier in this thread. I knew there was almost no chance to get a hammer on the upper ones, so I went to the auto parts store and bought one. Wow, was that easy! I'll never do it any other way.

So, everything is torqued down and put back together. All that is left is to reinstall the sway bar and then get it professionally aligned and inspected. Unfortunately, I am heading back out on the road tomorrow and won't be able to work on it next weekend, so it will be another two weeks before i can finish. Man, has this ever been a slow motion repair. I just checked and my first posting on this topic was November 17, 2012! Not quite two years yet, but certainly getting there. I will do my best to miss that anniversary!
 
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