Putting the head back on

[RootesRacer]

I like to made sure that's all flush before tightening the head down.

I have abandoned the stock side cover and cork gasket in favor of a 1/8" plate of aluminum. Looks nice, seals perfect every time (one place I use just RTV and no other gasket).

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks Jan. As always, another lesson learned. Would be any value in lightly tapping them down with a hammer? Any harm?

 

[Alpine 1789]

I like to made sure that's all flush before tightening the head down.

Yep. I will next time! I put the studs in before I put the gasket on and used them to line everything up. I assumed that would be sufficient. Obviously, that was a bad assumption.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Jim , see this photo and the next one for stock heater hose routing:

http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/plugins/p17_image_gallery/images/md_345.jpg

This is Kevin McLemore's (Puff4) car

Tom

Kevin's car looks the way I had it too, so now I have a new question. It looks to me like the outlet from the thermostat cover goes to the heater core inlet. The heater core outlet then goes through the heater valve to the head. But, wouldn't this mean that water only flowed through the head when the heater valve was open? That is why I was thinking that my hose routing was part of my problem.

 

[Tom H]

Jim, Did you notice the big opening on the front of the head before you installed the thermostat housing??. That's the main path for coolant thru the head. The extra amount that flows thru the heater core when the valve is open is not noramally needed to cool the engine and it was not designed for that. Before I got my radiator recored (3 row) I sometimes turned on the heater - on hot days - to help keep the engine cool. But that should not be required. And it does not matter how the hoses are routed. If the heater valve is closed no coolant will flow thru the heater core and no added cooling is provided.

Tom

 

[65beam]

head

jim,

there is a hose fitting that screws into the left side of the water pump. the heater hose hooks to this and runs to the right hand (passenger) side of the heater core. the other hose hooks to the heater core on the driver side and if using the original style hose that is available from SS it runs behind the master cyl reservoir and hooks to the water valve. then another hose runs to the hose fitting screwed into the left top side of the head. go to my photo bucket site and at the end of it you will find clear photos showing the way the hoses were run. my wife's car is in the first few hundred of production so there are no ugly oil cooler hoses to confuse you. http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/tt142/65beam/

 

[Alpine 1789]

Oh, that hole? Thanks! It is good to know that I hadn't done it wrong and caused the head failure that way.


So, here's the next question. In an earlier thread on plumbing a Ford oil cooler, Jarrid wrote:

It just needs water going to the cooler, breaking into the pipe that goes from the water pump to the thermo housing sounds OK since its so close.

Otherwise, re-route the hose that goes from the pump to the head, and break into that one.

Do NOT break into the heater circuit since when its valve is off, no water will flow.

Since I am putting the Ford cooler in at the same time as the new head, I have to decide where to break the hose now. I could do it at the junction between the thermostat and the pump, but it seems like it would be really difficult to fit two hoses in that small opening. But I can't think of any other way to route the hoses that would work. Am I missing something? (Note: I do have a Y pipe that was used on an earlier Series car, but I still can't see a way to make it work, whether I put the pipe on the head or on the pump.)

 

[Alpine 1789]

my wife's car is in the first few hundred of production so there are no ugly oil cooler hoses to confuse you. http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/tt142/65beam/

Thanks Bob. I don't want to hijack my own thread at the moment, but will want to come back and ask you about this later.

 

[65beam]

head

if you're thinking about an oil cooler, we're using the stock series 5 and both hoses come thru the horn opening on the right side. the left hose is hooked to the hinge panel with a bracket and then drops down to the opening. kevin's car appears to be one that had the recall by sunbeam where they moved the one line since some did rub thru and leak. my hoses have another covering to prevent rubbing a hole. on the mk2 tigers ,the oil cooler was simply two alpine coolers stacked. the oil coolers on my harringtons are 13 row rectangular units like was used on MGB's and it is boted to the hinge panel with both hoses running thru the opening.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Well, I almost made it, but I just had to quit for the night due to some dinner plans made a long time ago. And, unfortunately, I have to leave town tomorrow, so I won't be able to finish up until Tuesday or Wednesday evening. But, I am close. Everything is back together except for the tappet cover, thermostat and oil filter and cooler. I've got a bunch of other little things to take care of before I fire it back up, but did get the valves roughly adjusted, so that is one thing out of the way.

I'm going to stop at the hardware store tonight to pick up some odds and ends and 5 feet or so of 1/2 heater hose to see if it is possible to plumb the oil cooler between the thermostat and pump, but I would appreciate it is anyone can think of another way to do it on a SV. I hope to be proven wrong, but just can't see how that can work. But, I am stumped on any other way that doesn't route the water through the heater valve. And, I really don't want to put my stock cooler back on. It was too much of a PITA to take off!

Thanks for all of the advice so far. It kills me to have to stop before I am done, but I've gone this long without being able to drive, I guess I can go a few more days.

 

[Alpine 1789]

I woke up this morning thinking about the oil cooler and realized that I had severely over complicated my thinking. (nothing new there.) All I have to do is splice a T into the heater line ahead of the heater core and then either splice into the line from the head to the heater valve or use my Y connector at the water pump or the head. Not really all that difficult.

However, I would like to try to utilize the thermostat to pump connector if at all possible; that would certainly be the cleanest place to plumb it. I tried it out this morning using a piece of 1/2" heater hose I had. It looked like it would work, but one of the hoses crimped, probably due to being stretched to fit over the 5/8's outlets. But, I think the correct sized hose would be enough larger that it might not work anymore. Does anyone know if silicone hose is thinner? That might be a solution.


(Sorry if this part of the thread belongs under "Modified". I'll go back to Stock discussions about the head installation after this.)

 

[65beam]

head

why are you using an oil cooler that has water running thru it?

 

[Alpine 1789]

why are you using an oil cooler that has water running thru it?

Because some of us can't leave well enough alone?

I never liked the way the stock set-up left so much oil in the cooler and hoses when you change the oil. The Ford cooler has been discussed on the Modified section before (see http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5969) and the concept appealed to me. And, it is the kind of non permanent modification I like. I can always put the stock cooler back on if I am not happy with the change.

 

[65beam]

head

my ford van has an oil cooler that sets to the bottom in front of the radiator and hooks to a block that also holds the oil filter. it's about the size of a 1980 civic radiator. all part of the ford tow package. when did ford use this?

 

[Ken Ellis]

Jim, if I read your post correctly, you're having an issue with a hose kinking due to bend radius? If so, and you can't find a substitute pre-molded hose, then you might look for this item at your local auto parts store:

Heater hose "bender" -- a plastic shell that clips over heater hose to keep it from collapsing...
https://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?A=BK_6601457_0282496922&An=0

There's also a chrome bendable wire "exoskeleton" thing I've seen in stores, but couldn't locate quickly on-line.
On edit: Here 'tis, from your friends at Rock Auto:
http://info.rockauto.com/Gates/Detail.html?unicoil2.gif

Both are substitutes for a molded hose at the correct angle.

You can also get plastic elbows, but that's a two-hose-clamp-per-joint "solution".

Also, you could place a spring inside the hose...

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks Ken. Good options. I get home tomorrow evening and hope to get back to the car that night. I'll report back when I get a little farther along.

 

[Nickodell]

Because some of us can't leave well enough alone?

I never liked the way the stock set-up left so much oil in the cooler and hoses when you change the oil. The Ford cooler has been discussed on the Modified section before (see http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5969) and the concept appealed to me. And, it is the kind of non permanent modification I like. I can always put the stock cooler back on if I am not happy with the change.

My wife's Volvo P1800 had a water/oil heat exchanger oil cooler that seemed to work well.

 

[Alpine 1789]

I finished putting everything back together last night, but held off turning the key because I didn't want to start it back up in the dark for the first time. I am hoping to leave work a little early this afternoon, so not much longer!

I am sitting in a boring meeting and thinking through a last minute check list before I turn that key. One thought I just had is relative to the coolant. Right now, the engine is pretty dry. I'll certainly refill the radiator first thing, but there won't actually be anything in the engine until the thermostat opens up. Would it make sense to pre-fill the engine by disconnecting the heater hose from the head and pouring water directly in? Having just invested more than $700 and countless hours in getting back on the road, I certainly don't want to risk overheating right off the bat.

 

[RootesRacer]

Its probably too late for this but I only use thermostats with the "tickler valve" built in.

Its a little pin inserted in a hole punched in the thermostat.
The pin acts as a one way valve and allows coolant and bubbles to exit the system when the pump is not spinning (which closes the valve off under pressure).

I have found them absolutely worthwhile to use as it eliminates the need to purge the system of air. I used to drill a small hole in the thermostat for the same purpose but the one way valve type is better as it allows a faster warmup.

BTW just becuase the thermostat is closed doesnt mean that the coolant wont enter the block, its still will through the lower rad hose, but lots of air will be trapped in the block unless you give it an easy exit (via the built in valve).

 

[Alpine 1789]

Its probably too late for this but I only use thermostats with the "tickler valve" built in.

Its a little pin inserted in a hole punched in the thermostat.
The pin acts as a one way valve and allows coolant and bubbles to exit the system when the pump is not spinning (which closes the valve off under pressure).

I suppose it depends on how you define "too late". If that means everything is buttoned up, sealed and ready to go, then I am afraid it is too late. I could certainly pull the existing thermostat and go with a new one, but I am too anxious to turn the key at this point. But, for future reference or for those for whom it isn't too late, how does one go about asking for a thermostat with a tickler valve? Something tells me the correct answer doesn't begin with "I need a thermostat for a 1966 Alpine...".

BTW just becuase the thermostat is closed doesnt mean that the coolant wont enter the block, its still will through the lower rad hose, but lots of air will be trapped in the block unless you give it an easy exit (via the built in valve).

Also, I gather from you response that I don't need to worry about pre-filling the engine. So, that leads to two new questions. First, should I leave the radiator cap off when I first start the car so that I can top off the water as it fills the engine? (I don't intend to switch to antifreeze until I know everything is properly sealed and I don't have any leaks.) Second, what is a good way to bleed the system in the absence of a tickler valve? I am thinking at the heater valve after a good warm up, but that is just an uneducated guess.

Thanks.