alpine_64
Donation Time
Thanks tom i thought i recall seeing the ghost of warning lights past on the back of the dash.
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Enjoy.
Overdrive Wiring ect.
- Thread starter Alpine James
- Start date
Thanks tom i thought i recall seeing the ghost of warning lights past on the back of the dash.
Alpine James
Silver Level Sponsor
Hi all,
So here is where I am now.
I don't have any of the original harness or parts so it is all going to be new but not as per original.
I have found a local source for the Lucas SRB111 relay and will modify it per Tom's instructions.
I can drill a hole in the dash for a new light of which I have several spares of varying colour.
I will mount the control switch in one of the panel switch holes for at least the time being. Currently the blower switch is not being used.
I now have a question regarding the control switch.
Jim has suggested a Morris 70270 SPDT on-off-(on) momentary contact switch, and as I read the spec it would return to 'off' after being moved to the momentary 'on/overdrive' latching position, but if moved to the opposite position to cancel the OD while still in 3rd or 4th OD gear it would remain there in an 'on/direct' state until manually cancelled even if the transmission permissive switch was not enabled as in 1st or 2nd gear.
But from what I read, the original switch would self cancel after selecting either the overdrive or direct drive modes, leaving the switch in the normally 'off' state most of the time.
So looking at the Morris catalogue, would the #70280 (on)-off-(on) switch be a better choice?
Thanks, James
So here is where I am now.
I don't have any of the original harness or parts so it is all going to be new but not as per original.
I have found a local source for the Lucas SRB111 relay and will modify it per Tom's instructions.
I can drill a hole in the dash for a new light of which I have several spares of varying colour.
I will mount the control switch in one of the panel switch holes for at least the time being. Currently the blower switch is not being used.
I now have a question regarding the control switch.
Jim has suggested a Morris 70270 SPDT on-off-(on) momentary contact switch, and as I read the spec it would return to 'off' after being moved to the momentary 'on/overdrive' latching position, but if moved to the opposite position to cancel the OD while still in 3rd or 4th OD gear it would remain there in an 'on/direct' state until manually cancelled even if the transmission permissive switch was not enabled as in 1st or 2nd gear.
But from what I read, the original switch would self cancel after selecting either the overdrive or direct drive modes, leaving the switch in the normally 'off' state most of the time.
So looking at the Morris catalogue, would the #70280 (on)-off-(on) switch be a better choice?
Thanks, James
James, Good catch! Yes, the 70280 is a MUCH more appropriate switch. Especially if the ON (not momentary ON) side was used as the cancel OD position. In the cancel position, the circuit (mine and the original version) apply a short across the relay coil to turn the relay off. While the relay is shorted the current is limited by the resistor (inside the original relay or external on my circuit) to about 1.5 amps, but that still puts about 15 watts into the resistor. My external resistor or the original relay case will get hot. Not sure how long either one will last with that much power and heat going in. The circuit assumes a Momentary contact closure.
BTW, I rarely use the Cancel side of the switch. Because 95% of the time I end up cancelling the OD while downshifting, either by shifting down to 2nd gear or momentarily just going thru the Neutral gate - and then into 3rd or even back to 4th. I think this will become your norm also, especially without a column mounted switch.
Tom
BTW, I rarely use the Cancel side of the switch. Because 95% of the time I end up cancelling the OD while downshifting, either by shifting down to 2nd gear or momentarily just going thru the Neutral gate - and then into 3rd or even back to 4th. I think this will become your norm also, especially without a column mounted switch.
Tom
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Alpine James
Silver Level Sponsor
But if your going to get burned, it will be by the 5%!
Alpine James
Silver Level Sponsor
Hi All
It has finally warmed up enough for me to get back in the garage so I had a go at the OD wiring. It all seemed quite straightforward but there seems to be a bit of a glitch.
When I went to hook up the wires to the OD switch there appeared to be only 2 tabs and I figured it didn't matter which wire went where. Well of course that did not work. No power thru the switch in any gear. On the off chance the switch may have been stuck (or frozen) I went to give it a bit of wack and found another 2 tabs on the same housing that were hiding in the shadows and grime. Using the front 2 tabs it seems to be working as I had expected. except,
With the ignition switch 'on', when I enable the OD switch the relay snaps and the warning light goes on as hoped, but it does this in all gears and if I deactivate the OD the relay snaps again and the warning light goes off. Not what I understand to be correct.
At this point I havn't been able to verify if the solenoid is energizing. Need another set of ears, and can't confirm by road test.
Any thoughts?
James
It has finally warmed up enough for me to get back in the garage so I had a go at the OD wiring. It all seemed quite straightforward but there seems to be a bit of a glitch.
When I went to hook up the wires to the OD switch there appeared to be only 2 tabs and I figured it didn't matter which wire went where. Well of course that did not work. No power thru the switch in any gear. On the off chance the switch may have been stuck (or frozen) I went to give it a bit of wack and found another 2 tabs on the same housing that were hiding in the shadows and grime. Using the front 2 tabs it seems to be working as I had expected. except,
With the ignition switch 'on', when I enable the OD switch the relay snaps and the warning light goes on as hoped, but it does this in all gears and if I deactivate the OD the relay snaps again and the warning light goes off. Not what I understand to be correct.
At this point I havn't been able to verify if the solenoid is energizing. Need another set of ears, and can't confirm by road test.
Any thoughts?
James
James, Other than working in all gears it seems to be doing exactly as expected. I am puzzled about what action you observe that is not what you expected And I have a few questions :
1) Is there a 1 and 2 gear lockout switch on the tranny that you have wired into the circuit? And are you sure it's the lockout switch and not the Backup light switch? Have you verified that the switch opens in 1/2 gear or have you adjusted it according to the WSM procedure?
2) What switch are you using for the OD switch?
3) did you obtain the SRB111 relay and add te diode and resistor per my instructions?
4) in your original post you mentioned that the solenoid "seemed" to work. But you never answered my question as to what you actually observed that "seemed" to indicate it was working. Did you ever apply 12 V to the solenoid to see if it moved (most easily done before the tranny was installed)
5) do you have an ammeter installed? If so, it may be helpful in knowing if there is current going through the solenoid.
Tom
1) Is there a 1 and 2 gear lockout switch on the tranny that you have wired into the circuit? And are you sure it's the lockout switch and not the Backup light switch? Have you verified that the switch opens in 1/2 gear or have you adjusted it according to the WSM procedure?
2) What switch are you using for the OD switch?
3) did you obtain the SRB111 relay and add te diode and resistor per my instructions?
4) in your original post you mentioned that the solenoid "seemed" to work. But you never answered my question as to what you actually observed that "seemed" to indicate it was working. Did you ever apply 12 V to the solenoid to see if it moved (most easily done before the tranny was installed)
5) do you have an ammeter installed? If so, it may be helpful in knowing if there is current going through the solenoid.
Tom
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Ken Ellis
Donation Time
For the 'extra set of ears', prop your cell phone down in the vicinity of the solenoid, start an audio recording on it, then get in the car. Announce "test one!" and actuate it. If there are variables, adjust them and announce "test two!" and perform test. Repeat as required. Retrieve phone and listen for clicks.
If you need visual confirmation... hmmm.. lemme think a minute...
To my recollection, it is possible to perform the WSM test with the trans still in the car. You will need a low-profile right-angle screwdriver, an inspection mirror and light, a 3/16" rod about 2"-4" long, and a substantial dose of patience and youthful agility. Raising at least that side of the car is a given.
http://sunbeamalpine.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/8-Gearbox-Overdrive-E.pdf
Section E, pg. 16, fig. 11
If you need visual confirmation... hmmm.. lemme think a minute...
To my recollection, it is possible to perform the WSM test with the trans still in the car. You will need a low-profile right-angle screwdriver, an inspection mirror and light, a 3/16" rod about 2"-4" long, and a substantial dose of patience and youthful agility. Raising at least that side of the car is a given.
http://sunbeamalpine.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/8-Gearbox-Overdrive-E.pdf
Section E, pg. 16, fig. 11
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James mentioned adding a light to the circuit. I am not where I can look at the wiring diagram, but wouldn’t the light provide that indication? I know from experience that the light tells you if the relay is working, but I’m not sure about the solenoid.
Ken Ellis
Donation Time
Well, the solenoid can get voltage but not move (or move enough) to engage. The 3/16" rod test confirms the mechanism is doing what it's designed to do. But I would say that a solid 'clunk' will tell you nearly as much, once things are confirmed as basically working.
Not entirely sure what level of certainty James is needing here.
And when I'm going down the road with the top down, I can hear it engage, in addition to observing the OD effects.
Not entirely sure what level of certainty James is needing here.
And when I'm going down the road with the top down, I can hear it engage, in addition to observing the OD effects.
Alpine James
Silver Level Sponsor
OK, to update and clarify
I was able to confirm the solenoid is operating.
But the problem as I see it is that no matter what gear or neutral I choose, the solenoid actuates and indicator lamp lights when the OD switch is enabled and does not de-actuate when the gearbox is moved to 1st or 2nd gear. It does deactivate only when the OD switch is moved to the DD position.
Is it possible that this has something to do with the switch on the transmission? I had only expected 2 contacts for the switch but there are 4. Are 2 of these intended for the back up lights which I do not have?
James
I was able to confirm the solenoid is operating.
But the problem as I see it is that no matter what gear or neutral I choose, the solenoid actuates and indicator lamp lights when the OD switch is enabled and does not de-actuate when the gearbox is moved to 1st or 2nd gear. It does deactivate only when the OD switch is moved to the DD position.
Is it possible that this has something to do with the switch on the transmission? I had only expected 2 contacts for the switch but there are 4. Are 2 of these intended for the back up lights which I do not have?
James
James, yes, it has everything to do with the switch on the transmission. On all Alpines there are two locations for switches activated by the gearshift. One is for the Backup Lights and one is for the OD lockout (or "Isolator" switch). One position is on the left side of the transmission cover and one of on the right side. It depends on whether you have an early tranny or later all-synchro tranny as to which switch is on which side. I forget which side has the OD Isolator, on which tranny, but I'm sure someone here does remember. Assuming you are speaking of one switch on one side, but with 4 terminals, I must say I have not seen such with 4 terminals, but I can image such are made. If the 4 terminals are all on one side of the tranny then they are not for both OD and Back Up, but simply extra terminals for each pole of the switch. The fact that is DOES deactivate when you shift into the Reverse (DD??) position indicates that the switch you have is apparently installed on the correct side for OD, but it requires some adjustment shims to be installed to achieve correct action. See page 4 and 6 of section E.1 of the WSM145 for instruction on testing the OD Isolator and adjusting the OD Isolator switch. Most likely whoever installed that switch did not take care to make sure it was adjusted when installed.
Tom
Tom
sunalp
Diamond Level Sponsor
On a syncro trans, the back up light is on the passenger side on the trans, O/D on the left.
Somehow I doubt that the 4 terminal switch is also for back up lights as the indent for each is always
on the opposite side from each other. Be very careful to make sure that the O/D is turned off when
selecting reverse. If you back up with the O/D on, you will destroy it. ( At least that's what I've been told)
Cheers!
Steve
Somehow I doubt that the 4 terminal switch is also for back up lights as the indent for each is always
on the opposite side from each other. Be very careful to make sure that the O/D is turned off when
selecting reverse. If you back up with the O/D on, you will destroy it. ( At least that's what I've been told)
Cheers!
Steve
IIRC, my switch has 4 terminals, but only two contacts. In other words, the terminals on each side are connected. I recommend taking a closer look at yours.
That is what I was trying to describe!
Alpine James
Silver Level Sponsor
Upon further investigation,
The switch in question has 4 tabs but there appears to be only 2 contacts as noted by Mike. The switch is located on the right side (Passenger) of the tranny forward of the solenoid and I can find nothing on the other side, but there is a lot of stuff in the way (exhaust ect.). I disconnected the wires and moved the transmission through all gears and neutral and tested all 4 possible combinations of contacts to see if they changed status but nothing did. When continuity tested 2 of the parallel contacts were always closed, and when testing them sideways they were always open, no matter which gear I was in. So this would leave me to believe that either this is not the OD switch, or the switch is not functioning as required to make or break contact.
James
The switch in question has 4 tabs but there appears to be only 2 contacts as noted by Mike. The switch is located on the right side (Passenger) of the tranny forward of the solenoid and I can find nothing on the other side, but there is a lot of stuff in the way (exhaust ect.). I disconnected the wires and moved the transmission through all gears and neutral and tested all 4 possible combinations of contacts to see if they changed status but nothing did. When continuity tested 2 of the parallel contacts were always closed, and when testing them sideways they were always open, no matter which gear I was in. So this would leave me to believe that either this is not the OD switch, or the switch is not functioning as required to make or break contact.
James
James:
1) Is your transmission a SV tranny? If it has synchro in first gear it is a SV tranny. If the Reverse position is down and right it is an SV. If it is an SV tranny then the OD lockout is on the right side, like yours.
2 If your tranny is not an SV tranny, then the switch on the right side is the backup light switch. You can verify this by testing the "sideways" side terminals as see if they close when tranny goes into reverse.
3) My guess is that this is an early series (not SV) tranny and the switch is installed on the wrong side and the only reason the OD engaged at all is because you wired to one pair of dual contacts on one side of the switch. Actually this is the only conclusion I can arrive at, based on what you have told us so far.
Tom
1) Is your transmission a SV tranny? If it has synchro in first gear it is a SV tranny. If the Reverse position is down and right it is an SV. If it is an SV tranny then the OD lockout is on the right side, like yours.
2 If your tranny is not an SV tranny, then the switch on the right side is the backup light switch. You can verify this by testing the "sideways" side terminals as see if they close when tranny goes into reverse.
3) My guess is that this is an early series (not SV) tranny and the switch is installed on the wrong side and the only reason the OD engaged at all is because you wired to one pair of dual contacts on one side of the switch. Actually this is the only conclusion I can arrive at, based on what you have told us so far.
Tom
Alpine James
Silver Level Sponsor
I am not sure what vehicle the tranny originally came from. I got it with a SIV but it was not original for that car. I believe it is a later syncro version, Reverse down to the right. It was also somewhat different in size than a early OD tranny I had from an old SII.
When I put the tranny in reverse, the status of the switch did not change, just like all the other gears, leading me to believe the switch is faulty. When the relay, solenoid and warning light all engaged, it was when I had the wiring across what appears to be 2 tabs of the same contact.
When I put the tranny in reverse, the status of the switch did not change, just like all the other gears, leading me to believe the switch is faulty. When the relay, solenoid and warning light all engaged, it was when I had the wiring across what appears to be 2 tabs of the same contact.
