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Overdrive Relay

Mark B

Mark B

Donation Time
Hello all,

I have begun to experience a situation where my overdrive will only remain on if I hold the self cancelling stalk in the on position. Its an SV, ans so I suspect the relay.
Are these relays available anymore? Any advice from those who have experienced this before. Is more than welcome. I will be digging into the issue later today.

Thanks

MB
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Mark, Been there, done that . See my post on how I fixed it:

http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?p=89976#post89976

Or better yet, I have pasted it here:


I had a problem with my OD a year ago. Would drop in and out while driving. I found out the problem was in the OD relay. The switch would turn the relay on which would power the solenoid on the OD. But the contacts inside the relay would barely be touching and therefore a slight bump in the road would cause the Solenoid contact to open, even tho the relay was still on. If I actuated the switch again it would re-engage until the next little bump. I hope you understand this. There are a PAIR of contacts inside that relay. One is the contact that carries current to the solenoid. The other contact carries the current that keeps the relay ON, even after the column switch is relased. If this second contact bounces open, the relay opens and even the dash indicator goes off. If the main contact - carrying the solenoid current- opens, the OD would drop off and maybe re-engage at the next bump. But the dash indicator might stay ON even though no current is going to the solenoid.

I was only able to diagnose this problem by temporarily wiring a light to the relay terminals and putting the light where I could see it while driving. I used an LED and resistor and about 6 ft of wire. Sure enough, every time the OD dropped out, the light went off, so I knew it was the relay contact opening up and not anything mechanical nor the solenoid.

I fixed the problem by prying open the relay and bending the contact arms to be sure the contacts were in solid contact when the relay was ON.

See the dwg 4B on the right on page 5 section E1:

http://www.rootes1725cc.info/wsm145/wsm_e/e_24.htm

for the wiring diagram. I put my test lamp between C1 and chassis ground. The lamp will be lit whenever the solenoid wire has 12 V applied. If the OD is NOT engaged and the lamp is lit, you have a problem with the solenoid or the mechanicals ( or the wire from the relay to the solenoid). If the OD is NOT engaged and the lamp is not on, then you have a problem with the relay. I have now wired the LED permanently in. It's a better indicator than the original, because it shows not just that the relay is on but that 12V is actually at the Solenoid wire. I'm sorry but the dwg does not show the original OD indicator, but I know it is possible for the original OD indicator to be ON , while while the contact supplies no power to the solenoid,

Good luck,

Tom
Click to expand...

(You'll need to get to Fig 4B on page 5 of sec E1 in the WSM here)

Note that since I posted this I had to open up the relay again and adjust the contact blades a bit more. You need to bend the contact blades such that when 12 v is applied to the coil (terminals W1 and W2), both contacts make good contact AND the armature (steel moving part) is pulled solidly against the magnet core - no gap, (meaning you cannot push it farther even with finger pressure). If either blade is bent too close to its mating contact the spring tension of that blade keeps the armature from closing tightly and it can easily release when hitting a bump. If either blade is bent too far away from its mating contact it will not make good enough connection even when the armature is fully and tightly closed.

The relay is not hard to open up. A little work with a pliers to bend out the 4 "dings" in the case edge, then unsolder the ground tab, and it comes apart. After you are sure you have it adjusted right, insert in into the can, solder the ground tab and re "ding" the can edge in 4 places.

Tom
 
Mark B

Mark B

Donation Time
Thanks Tom-

This and a earlier post from Rootes 66 have been very helpful. I wanted an option for the relay if I destroyed it when attempting a repair. I have yet to find the old copy of the Horn that apparently describes using two more commom 6RAs to do the job of the 33199e(j).

Appreciate all the great knowledge,

MB
 
Mark B

Mark B

Donation Time
Thanks to all who posted and gave advice. I wanted to share some feedback on what I found when I got into the issue. I had always read the post saying to flip the relay over and mount it with the tabs down so it would be more protected from the elements, moisture, etc.., and it was somewhere on the to do list to turn mine over, but fairly far down because it wasn't broken. Well when I went to pull the relay apart, it was basically accumulating moisture in the perfect little silver cup formed by the relay housing, and over time had so corroded and rusted the internal components that I was staggered that it worked as long as it did. I attempted to rebuild it unsuccessfully and will now need to hunt down this tough to find part. Bottom line is the new one will be flipped over for longevity. and I would highly reccommend this to all. If anyone has one of these for sale, let me know. I can promise it will be well treated.

Thanks again for the help,

MB
 
Alpine 1789

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
I have often wondered if it would be possible to find two small relays, hot glue them into the Lucas housing and wire them as per Rootes66's diagram. It wouldn't be noticeable at all with the relay pointed down and you could even use a 6RA housing and it would still look standard.
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Jim, Not a bad idea. Or maybe we could find a small relay to act as the "Hold" relay for a regular 6RA. The current needed to operate the 6RA is probably much lower than the current to operate the solenoid. Use te 6RA relay to handle the high current for the solenoid and the smal relay to keep the 6RA ON. Hmmm. I'll look into that.

Tom
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Tom H said:
Jim, Not a bad idea. Or maybe we could find a small relay to act as the "Hold" relay for a regular 6RA. The current needed to operate the 6RA is probably much lower than the current to operate the solenoid. Use te 6RA relay to handle the high current for the solenoid and the smal relay to keep the 6RA ON. Hmmm. I'll look into that.

Tom
Click to expand...

Just buy two bosch Vf4 $4 relays and make a simple harness to link the two.

Replacements at any autoparts store and its a 30 amp relay.
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
That's what I'm talkin' about! I figured there were some very standard parts that would do the job. I'll take a stop at my auto parts place. But I like Jim's idea to put them in a 6RA housing to maintain original look.

And DodgeAlpine, if you look at that listing you'll see a lot of 6RA's but none withe the 33199 conact arrangement for the late OD control. Hence the need for a better solution.

Tom
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Tom H said:
That's what I'm talkin' about! I figured there were some very standard parts that would do the job. I'll take a stop at my auto parts place. But I like Jim's idea to put them in a 6RA housing to maintain original look.

And DodgeAlpine, if you look at that listing you'll see a lot of 6RA's but none withe the 33199 conact arrangement for the late OD control. Hence the need for a better solution.

Tom
Click to expand...

Yeah, the Bosch VF4 relays are probably too big to fit together in the stock relay case (they are about a 1X1X1 cube).

I'd glue two VF4 relay sockets together and do the local wiring there, then hide the circuit elsewhere (in the cockpit would be good), and leave some facsimile or wiring behind on the original to make the illusion of its antiquated functionality.

I'm all about reliability and function, form and fit plays second and third fiddle.
 
am99ey

am99ey

Gold Level Sponsor
Mark,
I have heard this could also happen when the pin on the limiting switch (on the gearshift housing) is worn and then is to short to keep the contacts inside the switch closed. Removing the washer between the switch and the housing should solve the problem. (not happened to me - yet)
Have a look into this. Good Luck
Andy
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Andy, if it were the top gear switch Matt would not be able to keep it engaged by holding the column lever in the On position, as he indicated in first post. Clearly it's a bad relay.

Matt, in OZ, no. I think I was channeling a character from an old TV sitcom. But I guess the expression is much more widespread than I thought!

Tom
 
Mark B

Mark B

Donation Time
Here's the latest: I called and explained the issue, then went down to Sportscars Craftsmen, the local Sunbeam guys. They had a great looking Tiger in the shop that day and a most beautiful sounding Jag 150 FHC. They let me view their staggering collection of 6RAs and we promptly found a 33199. I also grabbed several other 6RAs with what appeared to be identical pin configurations. Installed the 33199 and the OD performs flawlessly. What a pleasure to drive!
I will have the chance tomorrow to test some of the other relays, and I located most of thoer schematics online to compare. I will report back what I find. Thanks again for all the help. I did grab a few relays to replace the inards of my rusted 33199 and it appears that it will be an easy deal to mend.

It still would be nice to locate a substitute since all of the 33199s I found were at Ferrari dealers for 250 swbs and such and were rare for those cars as well and priced accordingly. Ouch!

I was fully prepared to link two others together with one under the dash and the secoind in the typical spot on the bulkhead which would have appeared stock to all but the discerning eye, but you know how that is...you just want it right.

FYI, the English Motoring Conclave is in Denver, (Arvada), this weekend and has always been a big event if you're local. No less than twenty Sunbeams last time I attended, and I will likely be there Sunday morning. the CATO group always has a strong presence and the McDermott(sp?) Tiger is a beauty when present. Plenty of Alpines and at least one of Jose's older Dark Siders in the past. If anyone from the the area is planning to attend, give me shout at 317-531-2030. I moved back to Boulder from Indianapolis a few weeks ago. (Sorry we never got a chance to meet Bill Blue..) I miss the rolling farmland drives but have enjoyed the mountains; the trade off being a complete lack of power...darn altitude!

Thanks again and I will let all know what I find out with the various OD relays I have.

Take care,

MB
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Mark B said:
FYI, the English Motoring Conclave is in Denver, (Arvada), this weekend and has always been a big event if you're local. No less than twenty Sunbeams last time I attended, and I will likely be there Sunday morning. the CATO group always has a strong presence and the McDermott(sp?) Tiger is a beauty when present. Plenty of Alpines and at least one of Jose's older Dark Siders in the past. If anyone from the the area is planning to attend, give me shout at 317-531-2030. I moved back to Boulder from Indianapolis a few weeks ago. (Sorry we never got a chance to meet Bill Blue..) I miss the rolling farmland drives but have enjoyed the mountains; the trade off being a complete lack of power...darn altitude!

Thanks again and I will let all know what I find out with the various OD relays I have.

Take care,

MB
Click to expand...

I moved to Arvada 3 years ago and this will be my third Conclave.
A reasonable showing for CATO each year, and the event itself is very good.

I may very well even drive my alpine to the show, that will be a first.
 
puff4

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
Reviving this thread and putting it back on track, hopefully! ;)

I just found this *very* interesting catalog buried on Lucas website... (caution: large file)

http://www.lucaselectrical.co.uk/catalogues/XCB634_switchgear_fullcat.pdf

Now... check out page 113, where it lists the technical specifications of their relays. I'm not an electrical guru, and I don't even play one on TV, but do any of these look like they would replace our almost-impossible-to-find Sunbeam Alpine overdrive relays?

There's a great many more relays in the catalog - with schematics - than this bit shown below, but do these seem likely candidates? Or any of the others?

Relays.jpg
 
M

mattinoz

Donation Time
I think this might be more like what we need. Just need to get them put this setup in the correct package :)
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
I agree with mattinoz. This item shows up on page 114 of the catalog Puff4 linked to. It is the correct double contact arrangement of the late Alpine Overdrive relay. One caution, though. This relay does not show, and probably does not include the resistance between terminal W1 and the case/gnd as shown in Fig 4B or the WSM 145 :
http://www.rootes1725cc.info/wsm145/WSM_E/E.htm

(page E1. 5)

This resistance could be added externally, of course, but I don't know what value. It needs to be small enough to allow plenty of current through the coil, but large enough so that when we flip the column switch to Direct Drive, and the switch essentialy shorts out the coil, there is not such a large current thru the column switch as to burn its contacts. Hmmm. I guess I can measure this resistance on my O.D. relay.

And I disagree with my friend Jarrid about it needing to be a "latching" relay. The original relay is not a latching relay. It is simply a relay with an extra contact (like the one mattinoz shows) such that when wired as in our Alpines the extra contact provides the latching connection. So you will not find any "latching" indication for the proper relay. It's merely wired in a latching manner.

Tom
 
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