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Ok-here we go! On to my first real tear down!

Andrew

SAOCA Web/Graphics Service
Donation Time
Hi gang:

In trying to handle an oil leak between the SIII engine block and the sump cover I have found a little problem. I thought that all I needed a new sump cover gasket but it has turned out to be a little more than that. I have now found that one of the bolts must have been stripped in the block during a past install. I tried to tap it out but my tap bottoms out before it can start any threads. I can only assume that the past owner must have snapped a bolt off deep into the block. What ever is in there it is hard as hell, any ideas? I am not sure if I should just try to drill it out, should I worry about going too deep into the block or causing greater damage? (I am sure that is a silly question).

I started the process of pulling the engine last night as I need to rebuild the tranny as stated in my past posting. I may then be able to better handle the block problem when the engine is pulled.

Any tips about pulling the engine would be helpful. I am a larger fellow (6’-1†230lbs. and I tell you, I could use smaller hands). I was looking back to past postings in regard to pulling the engine and it all sounds straight forward. I don’t know if there is a better way but the engine mounts to the frame are a pain in the but to remove! I had to remove the fuel pump and booster just to get at the left side; I guess it is all a part of the fun! I pulled the engine out of an old 72 chev many years ago and as I recall it was not as bad (mind you it had a great deal more room in the engine bay). I just hope it will not turn out to be the adage “that little knowledge can get one into big troubleâ€!

Well all said and done, I will soon know what the rest of you have been up to. The most complicated thing that I have done in the past is to rebuild the front and rear brakes along with the master.

In all I am sure this is going to be an experience.

P.S. thanks to everyone in regard to the ordering of parts, I appreciate the input.

Regards,
Andrew Masse

Sorry guys - I posted this under the wrong heading, this should not be under tech tips!
 

Fastback

Donation Time
I tried to tap it out but my tap bottoms out before it can start any threads. I can only assume that the past owner must have snapped a bolt off deep into the block. What ever is in there it is hard as hell, any ideas?

That question sent a chill up my spine. Sounds like it might be a broken tap (someone's been there before you, perhaps?) Once you get a good view of the hole, blow it out with compressed air and look carefully for the flutes of a tap. If that's the case, removing it is difficult -- too hard to drill. Good luck!

Wayne
 

Andrew

SAOCA Web/Graphics Service
Donation Time
Ok-here we go" On to my first real tear down!

Hi Wayne:

So I guess I may be looking at a long road if it is a tap broken off in the block? Has anyone ever had this same problem? The sad thing is that it is the fastening location that sits right up at the front of the sump pan at the transition of the gasket (transition at the radius edge). It is almost impossible to tighten and seal the darn thing down and not have a leak.

Onward I go, I will have to see what happens tonight!:(

Thanks for the note Wayne, even if it was chilling for you.:eek:

Regards,
Andrew
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hi Andrew,

If it is a broken tap, you will not be able to drill it. There is a tool for removing taps, that machinists use. It has three steel wires that slip into the three flutes of the broken end of the tap, then slides the collar down against the surface of the block. Now, if it isn't bottomed out ( which is probably why it was broken off to begin with, you can unscrew it from the hole. I would look for a professional parts store, like nAPA, and see if they have one for sale.

If you can't find one, or you find one and it still won't come out, the other option is a rather hard one. You would have to find a shop that might be able to use an EDM to burn it out, while the engine is still in the car. If this is not possible, then you might have to remove the engine to have the tap piece removed. It just happens to depend on how badly you want to remove it.

Jose:)
 

Alpine Bob

Donation Time
Would it work to drill and tap a new hole next to the old one and just leave the old one alone. Then drill a new hole in the pan and the gasket. Maybe two new holes, one on each side.
This is just my two cents worth.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Andrew, I had a similar dilemma a few weeks back when I found that the bolt holding the alternator adjustment arm only went some 5/16" into the block. When I tried to tighten it, of course it stripped. There were three possibilities, in increasing order of ass-pucker. It might have been the end of the bolt broken off in the hole. OK. Or it might have been a stud-extractor or tap broken off in there :)eek: )

To find out, I first drilled a 5/32" hole lengthwise through the bolt. This would act as a guide to stop the next drill from wandering. I then screwed the bolt back into the hole and used a 1/8" titanium nitride-coated drill and moderate pressure to see if it bit into the obstruction (OK, just a bolt-end) or simply screeched and chattered and the end became messed up (something hard!).

Luckily, it drilled through, albeit slowly, and produced characteristic curly mild steel shavings. I then tried an E-Z Out stud extractor without luck - I could probably have used more torque but was scared I'd bust it and end up in the worst situation after all. I then drilled the obstruction out in stages, moving up 1/16" at a time until it was all gone, then drilled the hole oversize, tapped it and that was that. Phew!:p
 

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
One thought,since a tap is tapered, can you get a bolt to start and grip with three or so threads? If so, you might be able to use a short bolt and stack washers to shim out the gap. If you can't get enough bite this won't work. It's not elegant but sometimes can get you through long enough until you can get a straight shot at it.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Andrew: You don't say how much depth there is in the bolt hole before you meet the obstruction (whatever it is in there). If there is at least 1/2" you might be able to tap a new thread and fit a machine screw.

You were unsuccesful in tapping a new thread because, I assume, you probably tried to use the conventional Taper Tap found in tap-and-die sets. These have too much of a taper for cutting threads into short blind holes, which is what you have. You need to obtain a Plug Tap and a Bottoming Tap. A Plug Tap (also called an Intermediate Tap) also has tapered cutting edges, but much less tapered than in a Taper Tap. They can start the thread and align it into a short untapped hole.

The next step would be to use the Bottoming Tap, which has a continuous cutting edge with no taper. This allows it to cut threads to the bottom of a blind hole. You can't use it without starting things with the Plug Tap first to cut threads in an unthreaded hole, as the cutting edges lack the taper required to successfully start.

If you have enough hole depth to do this, I would go with a coarser thread - say 12 t.p.i. - which will be less likely to strip. Just be careful to paint the head of the machine screw that goes into this hole so that you won't try to screw it into one of the original ones.
 

Andrew

SAOCA Web/Graphics Service
Donation Time
My first real rebuild - out with the engine!

Hi Nick:

I will check tonight in regard to the depth available in the block.
I am almost ready to lift the engine/tranny out of the car.
I shouldnt even say this but, I hope to rebuild the tranny so that I can take the car to the big meet in Ohio this year. I have been trying to get there with my car for over 5 years now.


Again, thanks for the help!

Regards,
Andrew
 

Series3Scott

Co-Founder/Past President
Platinum Level Sponsor
I shouldnt even say this but, I hope to rebuild the tranny so that I can take the car to the big meet in Ohio this year. I have been trying to get there with my car for over 5 years now.
Regards,
Andrew

Oh you've done it now - the curse is upon you! :p
 

weaselkeeper

Silver Level Sponsor
Last month, I fished three broken bolts out of the rusty 2.8L timing cover I "rescued" from a junk yard. One of those had a broken tap in it. I spent about 2 hours carefully grinding a small hole through the center of the tap with a small ball grinder... Okay, it took three of them to do it. The size available for a dremel tool worked best for me. Lots of cutting oil later, I got through it. I sized it larger one more time with a slightly larger ball grinder to get an EZ out to go in. I let it soak in penetrating fluid for a full day and then heated the cover with a torch. It came out with little further effort using the EZ out. The threads were crap and still wouldn't hold a bolt, so my machinist pal told me for forget about a helicoil and showed me a threaded insert that was awesome. I drilled the old hole oversize, threaded it with a bottom tap and threaded the insert in. The insert has the original hole size. I liked that much better than helicoils I've used in the past. Whew....
Rust R US. P
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Pete, would you go into further detail on using cutting oil with a grinder? I've never done that, always thought that grinding should be done dry, or use the soluable oil/water solution for cooling.

Bill
 

weaselkeeper

Silver Level Sponsor
This ball grinder is metal. Some call it a burr grinder. It has cutting flutes on it's circumference. I tried one dry and it heated quickly because it's so small, even though I kept the rpms low. I got twice the life out of the next one that I used oil with. I kept the hole cleaned out w/ compressed air and fresh oil. The third grinder fnished what the others started. The local Ace hardware stocked them. I bought them all.

This is not the abrasive type grinder that must be used dry. Oil or water will certainly destroy one of them in a hurry.

Look at the highspeed cutters and the engraving cutters on the dremel website below. I got the #107 engraving cutters.

http://www.dremel.com/en-us/attachments-and-accessories/attachment-accessory-category.htm?H=188537
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Pete, would you go into further detail on using cutting oil with a grinder? I've never done that, always thought that grinding should be done dry, or use the soluable oil/water solution for cooling.

Bill
Bill,

Technically, they are called "Carbide Cutters". I believe Pete meant to say that. A true grinder will not work with oil, because they work through friction. The oil acts as a coolant and lubricant, for the carbide, which actually cuts the metal from the part, like an end mill does in a mill.

Jose:)
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Oh, okay. I'm familiar with burrs, but I've only used the carbide types. Used them dry to port a cast iron head. Removed a pound of iron (really), heating was not a problem.

Bill
 

serIIalpine

Donation Time
Use Lard as a lubricant for die grinders, or wax.

Really!


No, really.


Really, really! Lard, like as in Pig fat. Really.


Eric

'62 SerII
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
If I were going to work on cast iron with a carbide burr I wouldn't use lard or anything that will make the iron particles stick to the burr. Cast iron pretty much turns to dust, when you cut it, so you want for the dust to fall away from the cutter, not stick to it and load up the flutes.

Because cast iron is softer than steel, I have never run into overheating of the burr. Maybe because while using the burr, you never keep the cutter in contact with the work, giving it time to cool.

Jose:)
 

Randy

Diamond Level Sponsor
Depending on the size of the bolt, try drilling and using a left hand tap and bolt to unscrew the broken bolt. Do not drill through the bolt so the left hand bolt will bottom out in the broken piece. Use a box end (or open) wrench and small hammer and tap lightly on the left hand bolt while slowly turning the wrench. If you need more room to tap on the left hand bolt, put a nut on it. :)

If it's a tap broken off, using a tap extractor will help if the tap broke off "loosely". Most times a tap has broken because it been wedged tightly and will be hard to remove. The 2 and 3 prong tap extractors are very weak especially on smaller taps. The prongs bend and may break off.:mad:

I have had some success (not a whole lot, 50/50) using a small punch and hammer the broken tap out by tapping between the flutes evenly. This will only work if the tap is closer to the surface.

EDM is about the best way to remove broken taps that are not easy to get out. ;)

We did have a chemical that would remove taps that have broken off in aluminium, but that was very volatile (health, gasses). We don't do that one anymore. :eek:


Just thought I'd add something I've ran across before.
 
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