I am attempting to verify the proper installation of all parts that affect valve timing. In that regard I would appreciate receiving opinions regarding whether the positioning of my oil pump, as shown in the attached photo, is correct (the engine is at the firing or power stroke position).
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Oil Pump Position
- Thread starter johnd
- Start date
RootesRacer
Donation Time
This picture does NOT match the factory WSM for where it would be for TDC#1.
You are about 180 degrees out.
You are about 180 degrees out.
Yes, John, you are missing something. The shaft is almost 180 deg off, as SS said. It is a very tricky visual, and as I have mentioned I messed up myself once because I could not see the subtle error. The slot is offset from center very slightly. With Piston #1 in firing position, as you describe, the slot should be to the lower right, i.e the larger segment of the circle should be in the upper left quadrant. You photo shows the slot in the upper left, i.e shaft is about 180 deg out. I think there is an odd # of teeth involved, so when you rotate it "approx" 180 the angle of your stick will be closer to the ideal angle as well.
Tom
Tom
Tom - I still don't get it. The diagram in the WSM shows that with the #1 piston in the firing position one slot should be in the upper right quadrant and the other in the lower left quadrant. With the pump in this position my rotor will be in the 2:00 position - pointing to the #1 cylinder distributor post.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Regardless of where the dizzy points (it may have been put together wrong), the oil pumps drive dog (in your picture) has the drive keyway offset to the top side of the dog instead of the bottom side of the dog.
It is important to get it right becuase a properly built dizzy will point to the #1 cap terminal at the correct mounting position of the dizzy without the vacuum advance unit hitting the side cover.
Get this wrong now, you will kick yourself later.
It is important to get it right becuase a properly built dizzy will point to the #1 cap terminal at the correct mounting position of the dizzy without the vacuum advance unit hitting the side cover.
Get this wrong now, you will kick yourself later.
Tom - I think I now understand what you mean when you sat the "largest side of the circle". However, if I were to reverse the oil pump where should the rotor be pointing? Also, would the engine even run with the pump installed 180 degrees out? The engine runs fine once warmed up - although it requires 35 degrees advanced timing to idle.
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Because you changed the firing order on the dizzy cap so the rotor points to #1 when it is supposed to, that is your cap wiring is 180 out too.
Why is your engine needing 35 degrees to idle? Best guess is your timing wheel has slipped its elastomer.
John, once you reorient the oil pump drive, you'll also see that the angle at TDC is much closer to 45 deg (almost undetectable from the specified 48 deg )than shown in your photo, because the # of teeth is an odd number.
Then you can fix your distributor and cap.
Tom
Then you can fix your distributor and cap.
Tom
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Nope.
The pump being installed wrong ONLY changes the position of where the dizzy sits when it is in time.
The only way to determine if the pulley marks or OK is with a piston stop in the spark plug hole (or with the head off with a dial indicator).
65beam
Donation Time
position
the cars run fine with the oil pump as you say (180 out). all of my engines are that way. the reason is that I have the vac unit on my distributors pointing to the back. that means my vac lines run behind the engine and the engine compartment is neat with as many lines as possible out of the way. #1 plug wire is in a different spot but again much neater engine compartment. it's also a lot easier to get to the dip stick. the timing chain and gears are correctly positioned and all we have done is to reposition the oil pump shaft. the timing is not affected as far as we can tell. they run fine. you say he'll kick himself later. why haven't I run into a problem in the last 40+ years?
the cars run fine with the oil pump as you say (180 out). all of my engines are that way. the reason is that I have the vac unit on my distributors pointing to the back. that means my vac lines run behind the engine and the engine compartment is neat with as many lines as possible out of the way. #1 plug wire is in a different spot but again much neater engine compartment. it's also a lot easier to get to the dip stick. the timing chain and gears are correctly positioned and all we have done is to reposition the oil pump shaft. the timing is not affected as far as we can tell. they run fine. you say he'll kick himself later. why haven't I run into a problem in the last 40+ years?
Good question - but there must be a reason why the WSM specifies a particular position (although I had a very hard time discerning anything except the 48 degree angle in the WSM diagram -a dot or mark on one of the oil pump drive lobes would help). As I said, the car ran fine when warmed up in this condition although it did read 35 degrees timing advance at idle. Since I never experienced any pinging/pinking under load or otherwise I don't really think the timing was actually that far advanced. I'm hoping re-positioning the oil pump will solve my hard start problem as well as provide an accurate timing reading.
The oil pump must be installed per the instruction for everything else to go together as planned, designed, and described in the WSM. BUT, regardless of how it is installed there is ALMOST always the ability to orient the distributor and wires in such a way as to have the car run correctly. I suspect there are a few of the (11?) possible pump positions that would make it difficult, if not impossible, to orient the dizzy such that the rotor could point to #1 wire while firing the coil at the proper time.
As John implies, I also do not understand any purpose in deliberately mis-orienting the oil pump as described by 65Beam except to put the #1 wire (and other wires, of course) in a different location than stock.
After all this discussion, John, if your sump is not already off I don't think it worth the effort to re-orient the oil pump. I'm not sure what else is off in your dist, but your #1 wire should be 180 deg from the factory location.
I think, but am not sure, that it is possible to assemble the distributor, mechanical advance mechanism, such that the rotor will point to normal #1 wire position with the oil pump 180 off. Or maybe you have a non-stock distributor.
Tom
As John implies, I also do not understand any purpose in deliberately mis-orienting the oil pump as described by 65Beam except to put the #1 wire (and other wires, of course) in a different location than stock.
After all this discussion, John, if your sump is not already off I don't think it worth the effort to re-orient the oil pump. I'm not sure what else is off in your dist, but your #1 wire should be 180 deg from the factory location.
I think, but am not sure, that it is possible to assemble the distributor, mechanical advance mechanism, such that the rotor will point to normal #1 wire position with the oil pump 180 off. Or maybe you have a non-stock distributor.
Tom
I can't imagine a problem if the oil pump is out by exactly 180 degrees. You just move the plug wires 2 positions.
That said, I haven't counted the teeth on the oil pump gear and if it isn't an even number then you can't be exactly 180 degrees out. You can make up for it by twisting the dis. My car has the oil pump installed incorrectly, and all that means is that this diz is at a 'funny' angle when timed correctly.
I'll fix it if I ever have a reason to drop the pan, but other than engine compartment esthetics it is not a big deal.
That said, I haven't counted the teeth on the oil pump gear and if it isn't an even number then you can't be exactly 180 degrees out. You can make up for it by twisting the dis. My car has the oil pump installed incorrectly, and all that means is that this diz is at a 'funny' angle when timed correctly.
I'll fix it if I ever have a reason to drop the pan, but other than engine compartment esthetics it is not a big deal.