New Member seeking advice.......

[MarkinDC]

Good evening, and thanks for allowing me into this group. While I'm not new to the old car hobby, I'm new to nearly all things (outside of general familiarity) Sunbeam Alpine. For many years I have owned several "yank tank" MOPARS, and always held affinity for British cars in general. Last year at the NCPC (National Chrysler Products Club) meet, a couple of Sunbeams (Alpines, I think) were being shown, which I was pleased (but confused) by until I saw the Pentastar on one of them, and learned that Sunbeams (and other Rootes makes, I believe) were at one time, owned by Chrysler.

This got me to looking around at them online. I have always been a fan of them, not getting any younger (just turned 58), and started exploring. A few weeks ago I came across one for sale that had of all things; an automatic transmission! which it seems they were available in the '64 and '65 model years?

One reason I likely have hesitated to spring for a Alpine (or any other sports car) is; that the last standard shift car I had was a Karmann-Ghia and that was 35+ years ago; and wasn't sure I could adjust to one again, especially since I live in town (Wash., DC) where traffic is so VERY unforgiving.....My thought was that THIS Sunbeam MIGHT make driving/keeping one more manageable for me.

Does anyone have advice on these "automatic Alpines"? The units were apparently made by Borg Warner?, is that a good or bad thing? Are they reliable, or dreadful transmissions? To what extent does the trans. diminish power? Are parts at all available (not afraid of/accustomed to parts searches) or are they "unobtainium.?" If these were a rare (they seem to be) option when new, is there now a price premium attached, or are they just "rare."

Or, maybe I should just "bite the bullet" and learn to drive a stick shift again? Any and all advice is welcome, with my thanks in advance.

 

[sunalp]

While I have no personal experience with an automatic Alpine, I have heard that they are fairly slow.
I saw an auction for one on bring a trailer and it had a video of it driving and, at least to me,
it wasn't inspiring. The automatics are rare and I think it's for a good reason.

Can't imagine not shifting an Alpine.

Just my 2 cents.

Steve

 

[absunbeam]

Mark- I do have experience with the BR35 automatic in a 67 Super Minx 1725 1bbl. It's slow, but found that the same trans is used in AMC's behind 6 cyl. They show to be a two speed trans but is actually a 3 speed. When starting out in D from a stop the trans shifts from 1st to 3rd at about 10 mph which labors the motor (1bbl you know). If you pull it down to low you will be in 2nd gear and run it up to about 45-50 mph and then shift it to D. George Barton had put a note on a plaque "0-60 in a weekend". After all that it makes a Tiger seem like a rocket! I chose the stick over the auto.

 

[65beam]

Al,
Our red 69 GT with the auto that we drove for years had the 3.70 gear. It was slowwwww getting up to speed. What gear is in the Minx? We pulled the Time Out camper with it for a few years. It kept up with traffic.

 

[alpine_64]

The auto used the BW35 and a 3.89 behind a 1600cc.
If it has been upgraded to the later 1725 motor the extra torque helps a fair bit but by no means a "sporting" performance. The top speed is basically the same as a non OD manual but acceleration is down.

The trans is OK if kept up with clean fluids and make sure the cooling system ( think was a finned rad or something akin) is kept clean and serviceable.

Some people have fitted later 4 speed autos from Japanese cars that use the same bolt pattern as the BW to the car.

As a side note the auto has a wider trans tunnel and different gearbox mount.. So if you were to switch trans you need to consider that too.

 

[Gordon Holsinger]

Good evening, and thanks for allowing me into this group. While I'm not new to the old car hobby, I'm new to nearly all things (outside of general familiarity) Sunbeam Alpine. For many years I have owned several "yank tank" MOPARS, and always held affinity for British cars in general. Last year at the NCPC (National Chrysler Products Club) meet, a couple of Sunbeams (Alpines, I think) were being shown, which I was pleased (but confused) by until I saw the Pentastar on one of them, and learned that Sunbeams (and other Rootes makes, I believe) were at one time, owned by Chrysler.

This got me to looking around at them online. I have always been a fan of them, not getting any younger (just turned 58), and started exploring. A few weeks ago I came across one for sale that had of all things; an automatic transmission! which it seems they were available in the '64 and '65 model years?

One reason I likely have hesitated to spring for a Alpine (or any other sports car) is; that the last standard shift car I had was a Karmann-Ghia and that was 35+ years ago; and wasn't sure I could adjust to one again, especially since I live in town (Wash., DC) where traffic is so VERY unforgiving.....My thought was that THIS Sunbeam MIGHT make driving/keeping one more manageable for me.

Does anyone have advice on these "automatic Alpines"? The units were apparently made by Borg Warner?, is that a good or bad thing? Are they reliable, or dreadful transmissions? To what extent does the trans. diminish power? Are parts at all available (not afraid of/accustomed to parts searches) or are they "unobtainium.?" If these were a rare (they seem to be) option when new, is there now a price premium attached, or are
Or, maybe I should just "bite the bullet" and learn to drive a stick shift again? Any and all advice is welcome, with my thanks in advance.

Mark I grew up in Arlington and still have a house there about 1.5 miles from the Pentagon. The automatic makes an Alpine kind of a dog. Parts are hard to find for that trans.

 

[65beam]

The auto used the BW35 and a 3.89 behind a 1600cc.
If it has been upgraded to the later 1725 motor the extra torque helps a fair bit but by no means a "sporting" performance. The top speed is basically the same as a non OD manual but acceleration is down.

The trans is OK if kept up with clean fluids and make sure the cooling system ( think was a finned rad or something akin) is kept clean and serviceable.

The BW 35 that Sunbeam used has fairly large vents for cooling in what would be called the bell housing covering the flex plate and the torque convertor. The trans used in the Arrow range has a longer input shaft and a bell housing with a different bolt pattern due to the angle of the engine. Internal parts are the same. I have one new convertor and a few others out of car that I had plus a lot of other parts. I also have some new parts left. This all came from Tiger Tom when Jean bought all of his Arrow range parts. I sold a bunch of my new internal parts to Bill Altalla a few years back and I don't know what he did with them. When it comes to ATF fluid you'll find a big difference in temp range and durability between what was used in the 60's versus todays fluid. I can say that the auto makes for easy driving around town.

 

[Jimjordan2]

While I have no experience with the automatic with the exception of driving along side one, it appeared pretty slow. I would think because of the scarcity of them, replacement and repairs could be a problem. Whereas four speed repair/replacement are quite available.
About like driving my brothers' 2 speed automatic Corvair. Clunk....
But if the car is decent, and the price is right....
If you find you don't like the automatic later on, there's always a 5 speed conversion available. Or 4speed OD if a purist.

Wow, someone sure put that Pentastar in the wrong location. Me thinks.

 

[phyrman]

The BW35 was used in many cars. I had one and a local auto-tranny repair facility was able to service it. The odd thing is that the ring gear is welded to the torque converter. The good news is that there are many standard transmissions available if you were inclined to swap. You would have to ditch the extra wide brake pedal and add the standard brake and clutch pedals.

Bruce

 

[Alpine 1789]

One more thought on the automatic Alpines from another owner who has never driven one. I accept that they are a lot slower than the manual transmission cars, but wonder if anything can be done about that? I am not thinking about changes to the transmission - although perhaps something can be done there - but changes to the engine. MarkinDC, you will find numerous discussions here on ways to get more power out of the standard engine and many of us have hot rodded our Alpine engines to be decent performers. I don't recall anyone ever having done this, but I wonder if an automatic would feel less anemic behind something like a Chevy rod/Vizard head/Weber carb engine?

 

[alpine_64]

Jim,

There is an auto SIV alpine down under that had a 2120 twin dcoe stroker motor built.. It also had a later BW trans fitted from a jap car... It went quite well with its 155bhp and 4 speed auto.

 

[65beam]

It all boils down to how fast can some owners get from point A to point B, stop at point B waiting for the light to change and the calm slow guy passes you up as the light changes. Then the other races to the next point and the same thing happens again. The process never stops. Jean and I drove the red 69 all over the east coast for probably twenty years. It was an easy car to drive on all kind of roads since it had the 3 speed auto trans. We travel I 68 quite a lot and when we drove the red car that way it did quite well. The trans never gave us problems. The BW 35 was used in a lot of brands. My point is that the owner has to be happy with what it is. If you want set back in the seat on every take off then the auto is not what you want. Folks that have been members of TE/AE for years will remember George and Margaret Howard from Peoria, Illinois and their series 4 with the auto. They drove that car all over the country and attended many Uniteds. George really liked the auto. The last I heard of it the car had been sold to a friend of 65 sunbeam and was somewhere in the south.

 

[belmateo]

Good evening, and thanks for allowing me into this group. While I'm not new to the old car hobby, I'm new to nearly all things (outside of general familiarity) Sunbeam Alpine. For many years I have owned several "yank tank" MOPARS, and always held affinity for British cars in general. Last year at the NCPC (National Chrysler Products Club) meet, a couple of Sunbeams (Alpines, I think) were being shown, which I was pleased (but confused) by until I saw the Pentastar on one of them, and learned that Sunbeams (and other Rootes makes, I believe) were at one time, owned by Chrysler.

This got me to looking around at them online. I have always been a fan of them, not getting any younger (just turned 58), and started exploring. A few weeks ago I came across one for sale that had of all things; an automatic transmission! which it seems they were available in the '64 and '65 model years?

One reason I likely have hesitated to spring for a Alpine (or any other sports car) is; that the last standard shift car I had was a Karmann-Ghia and that was 35+ years ago; and wasn't sure I could adjust to one again, especially since I live in town (Wash., DC) where traffic is so VERY unforgiving.....My thought was that THIS Sunbeam MIGHT make driving/keeping one more manageable for me.

Does anyone have advice on these "automatic Alpines"? The units were apparently made by Borg Warner?, is that a good or bad thing? Are they reliable, or dreadful transmissions? To what extent does the trans. diminish power? Are parts at all available (not afraid of/accustomed to parts searches) or are they "unobtainium.?" If these were a rare (they seem to be) option when new, is there now a price premium attached, or are they just "rare."

Or, maybe I should just "bite the bullet" and learn to drive a stick shift again? Any and all advice is welcome, with my thanks in advance.

Since you are an old "Mopar" person as myself, you should consider putting a small block mopar with a 904 or 727 (room permiting) and make the Sunbeam™ as Chrysler should have done away with that awful sbf.

 

[Bill Blue]

Since you are an old "Mopar" person as myself, you should consider putting a small block mopar with a 904 or 727 (room permiting) and make the Sunbeam™ as Chrysler should have done away with that awful sbf.

They tried but couldn't. Thus the end of the Tiger. Probably the only realistic Mopar would be a four banger.

 

[MarkinDC]

THANKS to all for the informative advice, very helpful. Good points all around. I gather that the rarity of this option (BW 35 auto) doesn't necessarily warrant a premium in an Alpine's value? I who like to keep things "factory stock" as much as practicable, and would need to "work with what it came with." I may post the listing (the Alpine I was referring to is on eBay) on the suitable forum so everyone can see what I'm talking about...….

 

[Warren]

18 to 22% RWHP loss is a lot as a ballpark for an auto often called slush boxes . Try revisiting some of the not great, Sportomatic Auto stick and other early automatics in period and their reviews. I do not recall a bunch of hills in DC but driving the Sunbeam and using the parking brake trick when starting on a hill is a good skill to learn. I will stick with the awful SBF and the anti theft device I mean stick shift but I do like my Si Civic 6 speed.

 

[MikeH]

18 to 22% RWHP loss is a lot as a ballpark for an auto often called slush boxes . Try revisiting some of the not great, Sportomatic Auto stick and other early automatics in period and their reviews. I do not recall a bunch of hills in DC but driving the Sunbeam and using the parking brake trick when starting on a hill is a good skill to learn. I will stick with the awful SBF and the anti theft device I mean stick shift but I do like my Si Civic 6 speed.

I remember taking my driving test in Pennsylvania to get my license when I was 16. Part of the road test was starting on a hill. If you were in a “stick” you had to do it without using the parking brake, slipping the clutch, or rolling back more than 6”. I like my Charger’s 8 speed. My first ever Mopar, by the way.

 

[Warren]

To compare a modern auto to the antique is silly. I did drive old Ford 2 speeds and have a C-4 . The eBay car that has an automatic seems high priced and dealer detailed. Can't trust a car that has been on a lift and pressure washed.