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Motor Oil with ZDDP

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
And that is why I *never* use Pennsylvania crude-based oils, Quaker State being one of them... they have a higher wax content and tend to gel (sludge) up in service.

Getting back to the Castrol Edge 'classic car' oil, is anyone using this?

Kevin, why would anyone search this out? Just get a Diesel rated oil and be done with it. I get so tired of Castrol's message that somehow, their stuff is better suited to oddball applications. Makes me want to use anything else, maybe even Quaker State.

Bill
 

65beam

Donation Time
zddp

kevin,
there have been many changes made in the lube industry since quaker had the sludge problem. the base stock was not the problem. they had an additive problem. penn grade crude has always been some of the best lube stocks out there. the "wax" is removed in order to refine the base stock and all base stocks now used are water clear. set it against a glass of water and you can't tell the difference. another thing to remember is that all conventional oils are now created equal. they have to meet the same specs and pass the same tests. various blenders make the decision how far above these standards they go with their additive packages. in fact brands such as shell,pennzoil and quaker are blended in the same plants since they are one company called SOPUS. shell oil products u.s. chevron packages lubes under the texaco label. conoco packages under phillips 66, union 76 and kendall. the castrol you mentioned was called syntec under the old label. bill is right. shell rotella 15/40 has 1200 ppm of zinc. it's main use is as a diesel oil. a build up of sludge is not a problem with todays oil. if it does sludge up either the additive package is used up or the engine has other problems such as coolant getting into the crankcase. the most common mistake being made today is believing that the oils being packed using reclaimed oil is that they are inferior. the used oil is rerefined and taken back to the original base stock minus all contaminents and additives. there are several new plants across the country for refining used oil.
 

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
Kevin, why would anyone search this out? Just get a Diesel rated oil and be done with it. I get so tired of Castrol's message that somehow, their stuff is better suited to oddball applications. Makes me want to use anything else, maybe even Quaker State.

Bill

The problem with a diesel oil is it contains a extra (and different) detergents and other additives made for diesel that are not appropriate for a gasoline engine.

Here's a quote that may prove informative:

Here are the differences between diesel engine oil and gasoline engine oil. In a modern diesel engine there is substantial exhaust soot contamination that the engine oil must contend with. Diesel oil is designed with much higher levels of detergency and dispersency to fight the soot contamination. Like ZDDP anti-wear chemistry, detergents are a surface active chemistry and compete directly for space on metal surfaces, such as the cam lobe and lifter face. So, in practice, the effective level of Zinc anti-wear is a bit lower than what we expect it to be based solely on chemical analysis. Additionally, the ZDDP that is generally used in diesel formulas is primary ZDDP (which activates at higher engine temperatures) since a diesel engine runs predominantly at operating temperature. In a gasoline engine, we must have both primary and secondary ZDDP (which activates at lower temperatures) since the engine will experience a significant number of cold starts. Also, the viscosity modifier polymers that are used in multi-viscosity engine oil to prevent viscosity loss at operating temperature (to protect the bearings) are different for diesel oil and gasoline oil. Diesels operate at essentially the same rpm all day long and need polymers that are shear stable to protect the bearings. Gasoline engines experience many large ranges of rpm during operation and require polymers that have both shear stability and thickening efficiency capability to protect the bearings.
 

65beam

Donation Time
zddp

kevin,
diesel engine oils also must meet all the specs for use in gasoline engines. that's a given fact. they do not have additives that cause problems in gas engines.
 

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
I remember reading an article years ago that said your car oil can be used again over and over, it's the additives that degrade and must be replaced and it's the contaminants that must be cleaned out but the actual oil itself does not degrade.

True?
 

65beam

Donation Time
zddp

back in the early 90's i was given the responsibility of starting the enviromental division of our company. that meant we were going to start picking up used oil from our customers. at that time we were getting paid by the customer to pick up and dispose of their used oil. that has reversed itself and this past summer we were paying up to 1.00 per gal and sometimes more for the used oil. there are now several refineries around the country that do nothing but rerefine used oil back to the base stock. the used up additive package and contaminents are removed in much the same manner as in refining crude. the base stock that is left is a high quality and is blended with fresh additives and resold for a much lower cost. it is a fast growing business. many large mining operations have units on site to filter and clean contaniments from their hydraulic oils. i'll always remember what i was told by the valvoline rep that was training me many years ago. we were addressing a question about oil life, sludge,etc. he pointed to a five gallon pail and asked the guy how much oil it would hold. he then went on to explain that the additives will only hold a certain amount of contaminents in suspension before it dumps out into the engine. guess what happens then! antifreeze is also being recycled in the same manner. the company i work for now has a unit in cincinnati that recycles and cleans anti freeze. fresh additives are added to the ethylene glycol left over. we only sell the recycled product in drums for fleets, etc. rerefining and recycling continues to grow every day.
 

65beam

Donation Time
zddp

for normal,non competitive driving and oil being changed every three thousand miles, any of the filters are fine. one thing to keep in mind is that the filters will only trap a certain amount of contaniments before they clog and create problems. filters for new vehicles have paper with a very small micron size for better filtering.
 

Bikesandfires

Donation Time
Anybody have experiance with a FRANTZ oil filter? My first encounter was in '76 or '77 when a lady came into the station I worked at and wanted her oil and filter changed...Probably a Kodak moment for everyone around me for sur...LOL.

I'v got a friend with a small fleet of trucks and he has Frantz filters on all of them. The oldest is a 2006 F-250, PowerStroke...400,000+ miles and ZERO oil changes..A new roll of TP and makeup oil every 1500 miles is what it gets.

He had to open it up a couple of months ago for an injecter pump problem and it looked like a brand new engine inside.
 

Bikesandfires

Donation Time
for normal,non competitive driving and oil being changed every three thousand miles, any of the filters are fine. one thing to keep in mind is that the filters will only trap a certain amount of contaniments before they clog and create problems. filters for new vehicles have paper with a very small micron size for better filtering.

That 3000 mile oil change interval is brainwashing by the oil companys and oil change industry. NO automaker has recommended less then 4000 mile interval since at least the early '70s for vehicles in normal operation. We ARE a nation of Sheepeople being lead to the slaughter....
 

65beam

Donation Time
zddp

bikesandfire,
you may think it's all bunk but it's not. one of my jobs over the years was fleet manager. the fleet ranged from cars to class 8 trucks with just about anything in between. i had hour meters on everything from 1 ton up. all of the fork lifts also had hour meters. due to having pump and idle time on all of the trucks, we serviced by hours instead of miles. all of the class 8 trucks were and still are serviced at 250 hours. all of the cars and pickups were serviced at 3000 miles. we also did oil sampling every service. never had a lube related engine problem. there are snake oil devices out there that don't take into consideration nor does the manufacturer understand engine oils. the additive package can only last so long and trap and hold so much contamination before the lubrication capacity goes away. a quart of oil can hold a certain amount of junk before it dumps out into the engine. it goes back to what i said about a 5 gal pail can hold 5 gal of liquid and then it overflows. anyone in the lube business knows that adding new additives is not something you do with a paint stick or by adding a clean filter.i guess anyone that cares about their vehicle will service it the proper way with quality products at the proper interval. an oil change is the cheapest engine insurance available.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
I am a great believer in regular (3,000 miles) oil and filter changes. My oldest sister bought herself a brand new Toyota Supra, when Toyota claimed that you didn´t need to shange out the oil and filter but every 7,000 miles. I told her to ignore that recommendation and change it at 3,000 miles. Her then husband told her she only needed to change it like Toyota recommended.

The kid that changed her oil every 7,000 miles, told he she should change it sooner, because the oil was coming out like thick molasses. She ignored him, thinking he was just trying to sell her more oil. The long and short of the story is, that my sister had to have the engine completely changed after only three years, at the cost of $2,800, which at that time was a lot more money than now, because the engine was completely worn out, TRASH!

These car manufacturers have a vested interest in us not maintaining the cars as we should, because then we will need another car sooner. They aslo want to make you think you can save money on maintainance if we buy their produce, versus any other car that needs to have the oil and filter changed sooner.

You can do like the add used to say. You can pay me now or you can pay me later.

Jose
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
When it comes to change interval,everyone has their own story.

Mine is that I change oil every 5,000 - 7,000 miles. The Focus wagon has 212,000 miles on it, mileage still averages in the low 30's and used zero oil on the most recent change, 7,000 miles. Right now, it looks like the engine is going to outlast the body.

Bill
 

Bikesandfires

Donation Time
These car manufacturers have a vested interest in us not maintaining the cars as we should, because then we will need another car sooner.

Jose

I disagree. They DO want their engines to last. Which automaker wants to be saddled with the reputation of poor unreliable engines in their products?

When I learned to drive Dad said to change my oil at 4000. so I did. When I went into the military I found out that ALL vehicles went ot the motor pool for an oil change bi-annualy or every 4000 miles..Maybe thats where Dad learned from, an army jeep was probably his first oppurtunity to drive. I'd say military use would be considered SEVERE SERVICE. If they need 4000 miles I'm sure normal use could easily be stretched to the 7500 miles that the carmakers now suggest.

@65BEAM
I worked 30 years for the KyDOT. All of our vehicles were serviced at 4000 miles. Using the cheapest oil some pencil-pusher in Frankfort could find. oil was also re-bid every 6 months so we got a different brand most every time,
THAT in itself broke the thery that you should stay with one brand of oil for the life of the car...Don't know what additive package they used, but every time GULF won the bid (don't remember what the brand name was) the bottom third of the can had a white milky substance that came out in strings as the can was drained. And STILL, there was very few engine failures, none that I know of that could be attributed to anything other then drivers that didn't give a rats-a....
These trucks were used hard, from hauling blacktop in 100 degree heat, to pushing snow at zero
My conclusions after 30 years....
1. That all oil is nearly equal, even re-refined ones
2. That 4000 miles could be stretched a lot farther in a vehicle under normal
use.
3. Engines are a LOT tougher and forgiving of abuse than we are lead to
believe.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
According to car manufactirers, normal stop and go driving is considered as severe duty. Anyone can do what they want, because it is your car, but my cars perform tip top from when I build them to when I end up selling them many mies later. If you get the same service with another service schedule, more power to you.

I will continue to use my old, faithful schedule. I know it works.

Jose
 

65beam

Donation Time
zddp

keep in mind that the state of kentucky is no different than any other state. when we bid on state contracts we have to submit a bid based on the specs in the bid. we also bid on contracts with mil specs specified. they don't send out paper work asking who has the cheapest oil. my statements are based on many years (decades) of being in the oil business. i would say i have seen and heard everything over the years. i've also been involved in moving drain intervals to 40K miles for a couple of the large trucking fleets over the years. the difference is that we did it in stages using oil sampling. it's a science, using a plan. not fly by the seat of your pants. i also change the auto trans oil in my vehicles at least once a year and the rearend oil every 50K. oil is cheap insurance for my vehicles since i run my tow vehicles real hard.
 

mr.bridger

Donation Time
the way I see it...

A) Fix your front seal(you're pitching oil all over the enviroment!)
B) Don't shop at walmart (It's bad for karma)
C) Sunbeam distinctly say to "use Shell oil only" on the filler cap...
Just sayin':rolleyes:
 

SIVAllan

Gold Level Sponsor
"Using the cheapest oil some pencil-pusher in Frankfort could find. "

That's more correctly called the low bid system; generally it's a direct reflection of regs set by folks that the people send into office.

I recall a much publicized study done back in the day which involved a fleet of NYC taxis.

Some of the taxis had an oil change at 3,000 miles while others went longer intervals.

The taxi engines getting a 3,000 mile change lasted much longer.

That was then - this is now - and the oil is much better we are told, even if the engines are still old.

A lot of us still do the 3,000 oil change for our old cars - maybe we are out of date but the engines seem to last.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
I must be dim, but I fail to understand the urge to save a few bucks by stretching oil changes out to 7,000 miles or so. Think about it: The difference in oil cost between two changes and one change in 7K miles is - what - $15 if you change the filter once (i.e. every alternate 3k oil change)?

Average annual driving is around 12,000 miles, so we're talking $30 a year difference. Weigh that against depreciation, insurance, tax, state inspection, gasoline, service/repairs, and you're talking about a totally insignificant saving. Sure, the oil may do fine for 7,000 miles, but whenever there is any question why not come down on the side of safety?
 
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