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Modified class

Green67Alpine

Former SAOCA Membership Director
Platinum Level Sponsor
At the Invasion is Cayce , SC the modified cars had what I believe is the first time their own class for the judging. With 4 modified Alpines in attendance.
Please other participants correct me if I've made a mistake .
Tom j
 

65beam

Donation Time
At the Invasion is Cayce , SC the modified cars had what I believe is the first time their own class for the judging. With 4 modified Alpines in attendance.
Please other participants correct me if I've made a mistake .
Tom j
My understanding was that the four V6 cars were the only cars entered in the Modified since there were no other Alpines with enough mods to be in the modified class.. You can see them in this photo. The only Tiger is also in this photo. It was a popular vote show with no judging of the cars.103_0157.JPG
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Tom, In the PIC 65beam posted you can see a Gent in a red shirt in the left side of the picture, That is John Miller, the owner of one of the four modified Alpines that were being judged. It is not a V6 conversion but had a 4 cylinder Nissan or Toyota. the other three are in fact V6's.

It is an interesting comment you made about the 1st time a class was made for the V6! As far as I know in recent times we have not had a V6 (Modified) Class.

If you may recall at the Furman Meet in Greenville, SC last year there were two Sunbeams that wound up being judged as 1st &2nd place. The Tiger won 2nd Place and my Blue Boy V6 won 1st Place :D

When I was invited to come up to the Stand and pick up my 1st Place trophy and that BIG Blue Ribbon, I did with all smiles, but asked the MC if I could make a statement, with the MC's approval I invited the 2nd Place Gent to come forward, stated my Sunbeam was not a Tiger but a V6 and exchanged Plaques with my new Tiger friend. I truly enjoyed the moment. Hoped it would help create a "new" Class for the V6's.

Then during the United XXXVI in Va My Blue Boy was the only V6 present. It was put in the Personalized Class.

Blue Boy took 2ndPlace right behind one of the most beautiful Sunbeams around owned by Sy ...... Different Class structure entirely. But, a good Class to be in:)

With more and more of the V6's turning up, there is a good chance to have our own Class.
 

PROCRAFT

Donation Time
Here we go again about classes(or still) TE/AE when you register for the United you were asked the question is it modified, stock or personalized this all changed and V6 cars which are modified and others like my stuff are placed in the personalized class, with the guy that has personalized his car with white wall tires as an example! my position has always been that there should be a modified class for ( no matter how many) ALL cars that are modified in one may or another be it V6 V8 blah blah blah if you make a motor, body, suspension, change that deviates from the stock configuration of the car them you modified the car and should be placed in a class with others of the same kind, the folks who judge at the United don't see things this was however and this has been a sore point for years on my part the answer at times is we would have to buy another Trophy but if you auto cross there are many different class for the color of your eyes etc. were building another car now, that is modified in many ways ,will see how that go's at future show , and as far as V6 cars having there own class wouldn't this be just a modified class
every one needs to be treated equally if you have a V6 class then you need to have a V8 class(there's a lot of those) a 4 cylinder class ie Mazda etc.
 
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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I think I have seen only one or two Alpines that I would say are stock. Therefore, I propose that Alpines should be judged by comparing cars to how they rolled out of the factory, including "official" dealer options. That would lead to the creation of two "classes", Most Stock and Least Stock. NOT best stock or best modified, etc.

Bill
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Tom, In the PIC 65beam posted you can see a Gent in a red shirt in the left side of the picture, That is John Miller, the owner of one of the four modified Alpines that were being judged. It is not a V6 conversion but had a 4 cylinder Nissan or Toyota. the other three are in fact V6's.
I spent some time talking with John about his car. The engine is a Toyota 3T-C, which Toyota made in the late 70's/early 80's. It was an extremely robust design (I put over 200,000 miles on a Corolla with an earlier 2T-C) that Toyota used for years. As I recall, John told me he bought the engine and transmission at a junkyard for just a couple of hundred dollars. The only modification he has done to the engine was to fit custom manifold and Weber carb, but there are many go-fast options available for it. It was a good fit in the engine bay and an interesting way to go that didn't seem too difficult to install.
 

65beam

Donation Time
Bill,
Keep in mind that many cars have had items such as windshields, side windows , engine compartment components suspension parts, etc replaced with other than factory stock pieces over the car's life.There has always been items that have been allowed simply due to better reliability of the changes. I had a set of NOS bumpers replated due to the lousy factory finish. Why would you use something of that poor quality? The patina or just because it's original? I was asked over the weekend if I would scan the dealer brochures and option brochures that I have so they could be used to set a base of what was available and what was on the cars for future concourse guidelines. My collection of dealer brochures and related items for Rootes and Chrysler produced vehicles has now topped I believe 440+ items. I'm happy that I now have all the known Harrington and Venezia items. Where do you draw the line? They're only original once.
 

Toyanvil

Gold Level Sponsor
If we did that, this car would win Least Stock every time and no one wants that. I would like just a Modified class.
DaveFairChalkboard%20-%20rright%20rear%20wheel%20close.jpg
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Yes. But many of the "stock" Alpines are, in their own way, about about as stock. I don't need to enumerate the things that pass as "stock". As there are so few totally stock Alpines, why not just have "Best Series I", "Best Series II", etc?

But my favorite category is "Alpine I'd Like To Own". At our Invasion, the winner of that award was Bob Starkey's V6 and the vote was almost unanimous.

Bill
 

Warren

Bronze Level Sponsor
Love the Rat rod Alpine picture as least stock maybe it's the diamond in the rough that has been discussed :) The subjective nature and the lack of a set of defined classes has long been a problem. It's easy to tell a replacement windshield but not some other parts like a Tiger air filter housing. The Rootes archive trust has made many drawings available so there's a great chance there will be more to parts to come sans patina or shelf wear.
 

Fordtootsie

Donation Time
So here is my 2 cents worth!

I belong to a car club here in Colo. We attend numerous car shows thru out the year. These shows include a lot of different car mfg and many categories. However most include a category of "Best Original ". This is for cars that most closely reflect the car as it came from the factory plus any factory mods thru the dealer. You can re-chrome but original chrome that looks good gets higher points, you can re-paint (factory colors) but original paint that still looks good gets higher points, new interior (like the factory) but existing interior gets higher points, etc. You get the idea.

We have other categories for cars that have been modified. Modified means some major change - like engine, trans, color, chrome additions etc. The V6 engine mod would be in some type of modified category as far as my Colo club is concerened .

As the SAOCA only includes ONE type of car, it seems to me that there should be two categories - "Best Original" and "Modified"

John in Colorado

P.S. Rat Rods should not be considered a car. They are material that should have already been recycled!
 

Fordtootsie

Donation Time
OH! I forgot to mention that the Ford Model A clubs have an EXTENSIVE ( The judging book is several inches thick) listing including things like every type of bolt used and where it is used ( can be different depending on car year), wiring, engine color, accessory location and color, type of top and on and on - Very Detailed.

Why don't we take a lesion for them for the "Best Original" judging category. We are an Alpine Club.

John in Colorado
 

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
There will be those here who care about trophies, 'best', etc. If you're starting a poll, mark me down as "don't care a bit." Nothing at all wrong if others do care, however, as long as folks continue keep things civil (as they are now).
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
I admire original cars and certainly appreciate the effort required to keep them that way.

Having said that, I don't see what Ford Model A clubs with their EXTENSIVE judging book has to do with Alpines or the SAOCA.

The SAOCA I know has always been about cars that are driven and I don't think there is much support among SAOCA members for concours style judging.

Put me in the "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" category.

Why is it that posts pushing for concours style judging almost always appear in the Modified Alpine forum?
 
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Ken Ellis

Donation Time
You know, more than once I've looked at a forlorn, not-worth-the money Alpine shell and envisioned a mini-Ranchero or ElCamino-style treatment. If it wasn't for that pesky back bulkhead, etc....
 

Warren

Bronze Level Sponsor
Was it motorcycle riders that said different strokes for different folks. We had a Rat rod Tiger with a bench seat, barb wire holding motif if the grille area. Its easy to say that car looks to be a waste of a nice Chrysler motor. After I drove a modified IFS Tiger I got spoiled and am in process of getting one, so I'm in the more modern and better drive ability. A Tiger with about 140RWHP in stock config is kinda tame. My favorite Alpine would be the one that is in process with the S2000 drive train that a member is building but as for done ones that Nissan powered one that a member put up on BaT not so long ago is a highlight reel car.
 

65beam

Donation Time
Everybody has an opinion and my opinion is that if you are comfortable with driving your Alpine, show up at a meet close to where you live or do as my wife and I do since health issues don't allow her to now travel long distance in the Beams and we are able to trailer the car to a show! We've showed up all over the country and that includes west of the Rockies. But we are there. I can name a lot of Ohio owners that didn't show up in Dayton to even view the cars on Saturday at what was probably the second largest showing of Sunbeams ever. Some live a short distance away. The Indy United some 30 years earlier had a larger turn out. I envy the owners that can drive several hours or days to a show such as Columbia. We used to drive the cars before RA got a strong hold on her. Trust me when I say neuro surgeons aren't cheap. As far as the show last week it seems I remember that it was a popular vote show with all registered owners ( ALL MARQUES) voting for the cars. so why all the talking about judging and classes? Owners and not judges made the decision on the cars. The only thing I saw different was the three classes. The only Sunbeam meets that I know of with judges are the Uniteds on both the east and west coast and the SUNI meets. Probably one of the reasons I was asked about scanning a lot of the Alpine info I have is to have a better idea of what was stock, what was available thru dealers and Judges that are Tiger owners and have little knowledge of Alpines will have standards to look for on Alpines. What class can be better determined with the right info and not speculation will help determine the class for the car and at the same time eliminate disagreements between owners and judges. These are Sunbeams and the numbers were no where close to some other Brit cars or even U.S cars. So show up somewhere.
 

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PROCRAFT

Donation Time
Bob Well said you're right most of the small shows we go to the competitors judge you seems reasonable to me! if your going to have a concourse judging you need to do your home work first maybe we'll be done for Dayton if were not dead first!!!!!!!
 
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