Is it me !

[John Boggis]

OK guys... Is it me but i thought the stock section was for the purists with Alpines.

If you look at the last few threads in the stock section you have discusions on fitting of Miata seats...after market carburettors...non standard alternators etc.

I can't understand why folks buy Alpines then go about trying to update them to a more modern car. this is quite unique to Alpines as nearly all the other 60s classic car clubs strive to keep there cars as near to original as posible.

Maybe that's why Alpines have such poor sales values.

 

[64beam]

Hi John,

I can understand your frustration, but if you have a look at the number of posts that the members have they are only newbies. Granted some of the more veteran members do also slip, but I think it is just an honest mistake. I also think that many people upgrading their Alpine, do so to make it more reliable and do try to keep the changes as close to 'period correct' as possible. In regards to the sale prices, there have been some high prices paid for less than standard Alpine's.

Regards, Robin.

 

[alpine_64]

John,

I think you will find that the "modified" section was orginally started more for engine conversions. I understand where you are coming from, but Rob is right.. lots of the questions are posted by newer members who probably think of "stock" as more the car has an original engine/trans.

Also many of the questions are asked regarding cars that might see more than an ocasional club run or show.. they are either daily drivers, or regular transport,so the owners are asking more about reliablity upgrades to the "stock" setup.

Some of the posts should be moved, but.. to be honest im not sure i agree withyou about the value of the cars being related to modified examples. Also, im not sure how many clubs you are involved in, but modified cars do not always drive prices down.. often they increase the value and awareness of the "original" examples.

Also well modified cars often bring in more members and if done in the spirit of the car increase value. Look how many modified Tigers there are, Healey, mini and triumph rally replicas all of which comand high prices.

Stock orignal cars will always be worth good prices (not what they cost to restore because of the value of "correct" parts) and then there are the lucky few who have "survivors" such as your SIV? I dare say in some ways its much easier for you to rsist "modifing" your car when working on it, than it is for someone to track down "correct" parts or drive the car reguaraly in "stock" configuration.. traffic ha changed lots in the last 40 years.

 

[Bill Blue]

OK guys... Is it me but i thought the stock section was for the purists with Alpines.

If you look at the last few threads in the stock section you have discusions on fitting of Miata seats...after market carburettors...non standard alternators etc.

I can't understand why folks buy Alpines then go about trying to update them to a more modern car. this is quite unique to Alpines as nearly all the other 60s classic car clubs strive to keep there cars as near to original as posible.

Maybe that's why Alpines have such poor sales values.

John, it is pretty hard to explain, as there are a lot factors to consider, but the car is seen differently over here.

First off, there is a desire to buy an old car and put it on the road without spending the kids college fund. Well, it isn't going to happen, but until a guy figures that out, he has put a lot of non stock items in the car while trying to save a buck.

It is hard to find mechanics in this country that are familiar with the requirements of the Alpine, especially the carbs. After a guy puts a thousand dollars or more into carb work and the thing still runs like crap, a progressive weber starts to look pretty good.

Another thing to keep in mind, this is a large country and a lot of guys really drive their cars. The last thing they want is for the generator to take a crap while they are 1500 miles away from home. Increased safety is large in the minds of a lot of owners, so there is a want for seats with headrests and brighter tail lights. The list goes on. To top it off, a typical owner will never meet a non club member that even recognizes modifications.

Then there are guys like me. I rebuilt the car trying to create a dependable long distance driver. As a result, practically nothing is stock other than the suspension and steering. But I and most others here, still consider it an Alpine.

Bill

 

[serIIalpine]

The reason resale prices for Alpines are so pathetic is not because we modify them it's because of HOW we modify them.

I like to think that I'm about half way through a "sympathetic" restoration of my car and a few of the mods I've made were either period appropriate or a matter of pure practical necessity (ie generator to alternator).

There are people that modify their cars by using modern rims, seats from a late model Volvo sedan, white vinyl, ebay carpet sets we've already established as junk and my personal favorite: wood look contact paper on the dash. And then they can't understand why they can't get $25K for their baby.

I realize that your car is your car and mine is mine and we're free to do as we please and restoring a 45 year old car is no small feat given the effort, skill and money required to undertake this task. Often times corners will be cut and bad choices will be made.

No one restoring a Series 1 E-type paints his car with a roller and marine paint but on several occasions I've been blasted for using Glasurit paint when "Interlux will do just fine."

Let's face it there are some of us that the nuances of what make the Alpine such a great car are lost and unfortunately the originality of the cars these people own will suffer.

The great thing is that if I become frustrated with my restoration of my car I can roll it out into the alley behind my house and set it on fire, or I can sell it on ebay for $2500. Better yet I can do what any self respecting MG or Triumph owner would do: Hold out for what's fair when I sell my car and that alone should more than double the average sale price of our cars. Well that and not modifying our cars to look like the weekend project of a drunk from the mid seventies. (No offense to the drunks)

Anyway, I'm going to go have another cup of coffee.

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[howard]

Will you be modifying your cup of coffee with cream or sugar? Will it still be a cup of coffee with those mods?

I have recently replaced my original engine with another Alpine engine (same size, etc.), replaced almost every scrap of rubber and plastic, and have a non-standard paint color (I didn't do- it the DPO did). But I still consider it stock. It CAN be restored back to the museum-quality status it had 45 years ago, with a little cash. Okay, who am I kidding- a LOT of cash. Point is, I've not taken a welding torch to the firewall, etc. and made it unrecognizable.

Doesn't make my car any more or less valuable. It just gives me some personal parameters to follow so I won't go crazy figuring out where I'm going with this project! I've seen some FANTASTIC mods by guys on this forum... it's just not for me.

 

[lgurley]

Stock

I got really upset when a mechanic replaced my fuel pump with an electric. Now I have a V6 conversion but nothing has been changed which couldn't be put back to the way it was. It just wouldn't be as comfortable and as good a driver as it is now. Go figure. I do however have a stock Alpine also.

 

[nickraymond]

I would argue that the greater damage to the Alpine's as a classic car is done by those who leave them in a garage to rot, or who do only a few miles per year.

I use my car everyday, its sympathetically modified, but it does have a modern radio, electric fan, Weber carb, alternator on a series IV and other modifications which make her a practical classic car.

I, like many of the other 'modifiers' do so out of necessity, I try to do the modifications sympathetically and it's a balance between originality and practicality, if mine and all the other non original alpines were put back to standard and we all had to sell them when they wouldn't start in the mornings, then your value truly would drop!

I do think its important that some Alpines remain original, as a piece of history but They were built for driving, not as museum pieces!

 

[V6 JOSE]

What I can´t understand, is that anyone would worry about what someone else does with his car. Even the purists worry about which shade of paint another guy is painting his rims with. No one seems to agree about what is stock. I see it as an exercise in futility. Purists are their own biggest critics. They argue over something that they can´t prove.

Alpines will never bring what an MG or Triumph will. It was like that when they were new and things haven´t changed. To say that their prices are lower because the owner deviated from stock, is rediculous. What lowers the price, is when the owner doesn´t do a good job restoring his car (paint, body and upholstery), or butchers it.

I think we sometimes want to see ourselves as the owner of some classic, like a Gull Wing SL Mercedes, Ferrari Datyona convertible or an XKE Jaguar. These nice cars don´t come up to that stature. We need to face it. What we have is a nice, inexpensive sports car. We need to come down to earth and just enjoy our own version of the perfect Alpine.


Jose

 

[V6 JOSE]

Right on Nick!

Jose

I would argue that the greater damage to the Alpine's as a classic car is done by those who leave them in a garage to rot, or who do only a few miles per year.

I use my car everyday, its sympathetically modified, but it does have a modern radio, electric fan, Weber carb, alternator on a series IV and other modifications which make her a practical classic car.

I, like many of the other 'modifiers' do so out of necessity, I try to do the modifications sympathetically and it's a balance between originality and practicality, if mine and all the other non original alpines were put back to standard and we all had to sell them when they wouldn't start in the mornings, then your value truly would drop!

I do think its important that some Alpines remain original, as a piece of history but They were built for driving, not as museum pieces!

 

[Nickodell]

Nobody to my knowledge has ever defined exactly what "stock" means in any case. Is it no longer stock if you put radial tires on it, or better-quality brake pads? Or fit a fire extinguisher in the footwell? Or a battery master switch? Mobil 1? How about a couple of non-Lucas fog lights? And while we are the subject of the Prince of Darkness, when I improved the fusing (putting fuses in the light circuit, for example), did I make Matilda non-stock?

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that many of the things we now consider common sense, like radials, dual brake systems, fire extinguishers and seat belts were not originally fitted because people didn't think about them much back in the 50s and 60s. If they were building the Alpine today you can bet many of them would be included without a second thought.

 

[Sownman]

Seems like two issues here. One being where threads about modifications are posted which is probably mostly an error. I know my first or one of my first posts was regarding an old LeMans Alpine magazine article and I posted it in stock because I didn't know any better. This is solved by moderators spending a bit more time moving threads started in the wrong forum so newbies learn.

Second issue being making mods in the first place. I've seen pictures of John's car and am very envious. It's beautiful and appears just as it did in the showroom. Most of us are not lucky enough to have bought new or to stumble on such a gem. Most of us were forced to buy what we can afford
and under the restriction of budget and time try to make and keep the car drivable. Some guys pick modern replacement parts for power or budget or reliability reasons. I bought my car because it was fairly close to original and so far all money and effort has been spent in removing mods and replacing
missing factory items.

That said what I don't understand is why people who are not hampered by budget concerns buy 60's era cars and try to turn them into modern cars with different brakes, engines, transmissions, suspensions,and wheels etc. If you don't really like Alpines or Tigers or any other vintage car for that matter why not buy something else ? There are Tigers and probably Alpines as well that have cost more Z06 Vettes or Vipers and are not nearly as well engineered as the modern cars.

 

[Sownman]

Nobody to my knowledge has ever defined exactly what "stock" means in any case. Is it no longer stock if you put radial tires on it, or better-quality brake pads?

I was told it's no longer stock if you put modern air into your bias ply tires.


One thing nice that I would love to see from discussions like this is a better
definition of "stock" "personalized" "modified" classes. My first big event was Tiger United at Big Bear last summer. Even as a beginner I saw a car in the "stock" category that did not belong there and I never figured out the difference between personalized and modified. Seemed personalized was anything goes as long as the engine and trans are kind of close to original
even if they are not original.

 

[serIIalpine]

You can't tell me that this ebay MGB: 120363832722 is nicer, better, more valuable than this ebay Alpine: 230320008946 but there you have it an MG with crappy vinyl non original seats and awful 80's fog light is worth more than the pretty much stock Alpine but it will sell for double the Alpine because the MG for some reason that escapes all logic has a better reputation then the Alpine.

Why? Build quality? NO Engineering superiority? NO Driving Experience? NO reliability? NO Styling? NO!!!! Availability of parts? NO Cost of ownership/restoration? NO Rarity? NO

I, for one, am at a loss.


Eric

'62 SerII

 

[SIVAllan]

For my 0.02$ worth... stock is stock, mods are not.

There are lots of reasons to do mods, some more valid than others IMHO.

But I'm not sure lack of parts or expertise is terribly valid for a persistent owner of our 40+ year old Sunbeams.

Those that recall searching for parts soon after Chrysler pulled the plug remember what difficulty is all about. In Atlanta GA in 1972 finding parts was darn near impossible.

Compare today to then and most parts are comparatively less difficult .

Sharing the latest "fill in the blank" that will work or can be altered to work is very helpful and interesting, just not stock.

I'd define stock as "factory assembly line correct."

By that definition my car is heavily modified, although the mods are all Rootes/Sunbeam parts from the entire production run.

Oh, and the paint. Definately a mod, but eventually will be replaced.

I plan to drive my Sunbeam cross country so a spare generator, etc goes into the boot. Not too much of a weight to bear, and I get to keep + grnd wiring .

 

[puff4]

MG's have a huge club following (and in particular we're talking about the MGB only, since the MG Midget is a largely forgotten ugly stepchild to them), and the MG sports car line is a long and historic one with many different models and styles. In comparison, the Sunbeam line is rather short and narrow - really only two main model lines - the 50's Sunbeam Alpines and the 60's Alpine/Tiger series. Plus, back in the day the Sunbeams didn't sell in nearly the numbers as the MGB did, so there's lots more of the B's about. As a result, they have become the defacto British sports car of that everyone remembers, and as such they hold higher value.

 

[Duke]

an MG with crappy vinyl non original seats and awful 80's fog light is worth more than the pretty much stock Alpine but it will sell for double the Alpine because the MG for some reason that escapes all logic has a better reputation then the Alpine.

Easy answer here - MG had great marketing in the 60's, Sunbeam did not. How many of you have been asked about "what year is your MG"? I even have a bumper sticker (from our Austrailian friend) that states "This is Not and MG".

Many of those paying the relative big money, compared to an Alpine, for a MGBs is because their Dad, Brother, Mother, Uncle, Aunt or they themself had one in earlier days. In High School (1982-1985) my friends and I drove MGs (B,C and Midget), Triumphs, Fiats etc. I knew no one that had or had seen an Alpine. All of the salvage yards I went to for LBC parts did not have any Alpines in them either.

Your answer is marketing and sheer numbers of cars. Alpines may be better cars than an MGB but few people know what they are or have a strong desire to relive better days in one.

 

[lgurley]

We lost track

I think we may have lost track of where this thread was going. If I understand correctly, John was not starting a debate over whether stock was better than modified. I think he was just saying that we might be asking modified questions in a stock forum. In that case he is right but I don't think there would be a great many who have not done at least some mods whether it is tire size, paint color, carbs, electronics or maybe something else to make the car run better.
To be absolutely correct we should have Stock, Modified and Super Modified or Darksiders.
On the other hand maybe the moderators should ban us for posting in the wrong forum. Naw, that might be too severe.

 

[alpine_64]

Yes, the thread has gone off topic.. Johns original intention was to point out that the stock section of the board was for stock cars.. but i guess he also added in his opinion that the fact that people keep modifing the cars decreases their worth.

Nick Odell made a good point in that people struggle to define what stock is.. and in his post he actually proved the point by demonstrating the lack of understanding of what was offered on alpine and what wasn't. The stock section might be used to educate people as to what is original:

*fit a fire extinguisher in the footwell? There were 2 sizes of fire extinguisher offered for the alpine, made by Britax and branded "rootes".
*How about a couple of non-Lucas fog lights? > Lucas fog lights were not an option. Alpines used LUMAX brand and later mid S3 on Lumax branded as "rootes"

 

[V6 JOSE]

That said what I don't understand is why people who are not hampered by budget concerns buy 60's era cars and try to turn them into modern cars with different brakes, engines, transmissions, suspensions,and wheels etc. If you don't really like Alpines or Tigers or any other vintage car for that matter why not buy something else ? There are Tigers and probably Alpines as well that have cost more Z06 Vettes or Vipers and are not nearly as well engineered as the modern cars.

I can tell you why some guys convert their Alpines. They love the looks of the Alpine body. They like the strength of the Alpine unibody. They love the way it handles. They like the looks of early sports cars. What they don´t like, is a weak, unreliable engine. The rest of the car is wonderful. Unfortunatley, if you want a great Alpine, you need to go with a more modern power train. it maks the Alpine run, handle, perform WAY better than a stocker. I know that some guys do drive their Alpines every day and enjoy them with their sewing machine engine, but I can´t handle that. I need a high performance car, and the V6 Alpine provides just that. Why is it had to understand that we are not all alike and therefore we aren´t going to like the same things. I appreciate a well restored stocker. There is one that I wish I owned, but it couldn´t be my only Alpine. I love driving an Alpine every day, wherever I need/want to go. I loved driving cross country at freeway speeds, without worrying that the engine would spin a rod bearing., blow a head gasket, blow up an alternator, etc, etc, etc.

I saved two Alpines that wouldn´t be running today, if it weren´t for putting a V6 in them. We need to allow folks to do what they want to, without having/trying to understand them.

Jose