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Head Gaskets and DPOs
- Thread starter Greggers
- Start date
sd_pace
Donation Time
Greg.. saw the pics of the pistons... all 4 of the top rings were broken?....must of been a bad set of rings... explains the oil buildup... the bearings wear looks ok but you can tell from the streaks the oil was really dirty...the pic#2 of mikes heads ... top left w/sparkplugs looks ok and it doesnt have the tube plug ports....still it depends on the on the face...
talk latr
steve
talk latr
steve
RootesRooter
Donation Time
All four top rings broken? Sounds like new rings were installed sometime in the past without also removing the ridges at the top of the cylinders.
Unless Rootes was experimenting with a two-piece ring design, yep, all four were broken. No, wait, it's bored .020 over, so it's definitely not the work of a Rootes engineer. More like the work of a backyard engineer who didn't feel like going to Autozone and spending the $40 on a deglazer.
In case anyone hasn't been following along, my compression was 75, 90, 90, 0. After pulling the head, finding the head gasket upside down (which blocked the cooling port for #4), as well as discovering a toasted valve in #4, a slightly burned valve in #1, and broken rings front to back, it's all starting to make sense.
And as for the dirtiness of the oil, that, too is the work of a DPO. I drained the oil as soon as I got the car home and only put maybe 100 miles on it before tearing the motor down. Only that which lives in the oil cooler will have anything to do with my car's former life.
In case anyone hasn't been following along, my compression was 75, 90, 90, 0. After pulling the head, finding the head gasket upside down (which blocked the cooling port for #4), as well as discovering a toasted valve in #4, a slightly burned valve in #1, and broken rings front to back, it's all starting to make sense.
And as for the dirtiness of the oil, that, too is the work of a DPO. I drained the oil as soon as I got the car home and only put maybe 100 miles on it before tearing the motor down. Only that which lives in the oil cooler will have anything to do with my car's former life.
Sorry Tom, I didn't mean to be secretive about it. I sent Steve a direct message with images of the pistons in them.
I've shared them below. If you'd like to see larger versions, let me know. I'm not on any of those fun photo-hosting sites.
I've shared them below. If you'd like to see larger versions, let me know. I'm not on any of those fun photo-hosting sites.
Attachments
OK, that's better. Interesting that all 4 rings "broke" and that all four seem about broken in the middle. It may be that the re-builder deliberately split them in half for some reason? When my engine broke a ring -#4 , of course- it broke off a piece about 1/4" long, and that short piece wobbled in the groove for who knows how long, before it broke thru the top and rattled around in the combustion chamber for about 50 revs or so, before it embedded itself into the alloy head.
Tom
Tom
Three of them appeared to be in half. One of them (I don't recall which right now, but possibly #1 (which is the far left pic)), was more of a 60/40 split (and almost seemed like a 1/4" segment was missing (though it's definitely not anywhere in the head)).
It wouldn't surprise me if a PO split them because they were just too hard to put on. Believe me, that would not be the first bit of creative engineering I've seen on this car.
It wouldn't surprise me if a PO split them because they were just too hard to put on. Believe me, that would not be the first bit of creative engineering I've seen on this car.
In my case I think it was due to overheated and possible pinging. The exhaust valve seat area was burned or corroded, only on #4 and I am pretty sure the engine was factory built, even tho this occured in 2005. All the dimensions were stock, and piston numbers, head gasket printing, etc looked factory.
Tom
Tom
RootesRooter
Donation Time
I can't think of a reason that anyone would intentionally break the rings in half before installing. Without the tension of a full ring, they would be barely better than no rings at all.
And if the engine were pinging badly as per the original poster, I'd have expected the tops of the pistons to be deformed/melted first.
After reading this thread I am needing to know where to obtain a quality head gasket. I have one but iot looks cheap compared to the one I removed from the car. It seems to be in layers? which are coming apart?
In an effort to light a fire under the machinist, I visited there today. He had just finished bead blasting head #2 and showed it to me. Looks really good. (He looks sick as a dog, but that's irrelevant.). It only needs all eight guides replaced.
As an excuse to visit him, I brought the eight o-rings that came in the head gasket set. Those are valve seals, correct? When I handed them to him, he didn't know where they go (I'm starting to believe this is his first Rootes engine). Do they go below the spring retainer? Somewhere else?
As an excuse to visit him, I brought the eight o-rings that came in the head gasket set. Those are valve seals, correct? When I handed them to him, he didn't know where they go (I'm starting to believe this is his first Rootes engine). Do they go below the spring retainer? Somewhere else?
RootesRacer
Donation Time
They go IN the valve keeper.
They arent stem seals in the conventional sense, they keep the rocker oil from draining into the retainer and going down the stem into the guide.
They arent stem seals in the conventional sense, they keep the rocker oil from draining into the retainer and going down the stem into the guide.
Thanks RootesRacer. That's what I figured and what I suggested to him. I watched him try to pick the old ones out without success. They must be wedged in there good.
I guess they'd have to be. The o-rings in the kit seem way bigger than the ones that are in there. It's almost as if the inside diameter of the new ones are similar to the outside diameter of the old ones.
Or perhaps he was trying to pick something out of the spring retainer. Anybody have a photo of the o-rings in place?
I guess they'd have to be. The o-rings in the kit seem way bigger than the ones that are in there. It's almost as if the inside diameter of the new ones are similar to the outside diameter of the old ones.
Or perhaps he was trying to pick something out of the spring retainer. Anybody have a photo of the o-rings in place?
RootesRacer
Donation Time
Go to the WSM and it shows a picture.
So the car is up and running. There's still quite a bit of tweaking to do, but it's running pretty ok, considering.
The distributor does a little tiny figure 8, so that needs to go. It turns out that the Cardone 25D4 reman distributor is NLA at Napa, O'Reilly, and Advance. So I ordered up the Perrtronix one from Advance (for about the same as Napa was charging for the Cardone one).
I did a compression test today and got 140, 135, 140, 140 with the throttle wide open. The lower than standard compression could be because it's bored .020 over with dished pistons. I'm not sure why #2 is lower. I would've bet #3, with its egg-shaped bore would be the lower one.
I'm still having problems with the carb sync. The bolt in the pinch collar was stripped, so it's no surprise they wouldn't work together. I replaced the bolt and at least now they open at the same time (if not at the same rate). My ears are only so good with the hose trick. Need a Uni-syn (which is NLA at O'Reilly).
Colortune works like a champ. The car was running rough and as soon as it went blue, everything smoothed out. I need to get another to do it right, but I'm impressed with what a single one did.
Of course, I can't run it much more until I replace the oil cooler hoses. One of them is hemorrhaging oil. And with all this, I'm hemorrhaging money.
The distributor does a little tiny figure 8, so that needs to go. It turns out that the Cardone 25D4 reman distributor is NLA at Napa, O'Reilly, and Advance. So I ordered up the Perrtronix one from Advance (for about the same as Napa was charging for the Cardone one).
I did a compression test today and got 140, 135, 140, 140 with the throttle wide open. The lower than standard compression could be because it's bored .020 over with dished pistons. I'm not sure why #2 is lower. I would've bet #3, with its egg-shaped bore would be the lower one.
I'm still having problems with the carb sync. The bolt in the pinch collar was stripped, so it's no surprise they wouldn't work together. I replaced the bolt and at least now they open at the same time (if not at the same rate). My ears are only so good with the hose trick. Need a Uni-syn (which is NLA at O'Reilly).
Colortune works like a champ. The car was running rough and as soon as it went blue, everything smoothed out. I need to get another to do it right, but I'm impressed with what a single one did.
Of course, I can't run it much more until I replace the oil cooler hoses. One of them is hemorrhaging oil. And with all this, I'm hemorrhaging money.
Valve Retainer O Rings
The O rings do go into the valve retainer and from my experience the old ones are as "hard as a carp" and I needed to use a sharp tool and hammer to get the old ones out. New ones go in fine, but be sure they seat properly and then install the whole retainer with new O ring.
The O rings do go into the valve retainer and from my experience the old ones are as "hard as a carp" and I needed to use a sharp tool and hammer to get the old ones out. New ones go in fine, but be sure they seat properly and then install the whole retainer with new O ring.