Harrington alpines in the press

[alpine_64]

Been a fair bit of Harrington press in the UK of late, clasdic and sports car match issue has a series C Harrington in a group test vs a tr4 dove and mg berlinetta, this months (April) issue of octane has a track test and history of the ex-bob Avery Sebring harrington tribute car... The one rebodied but using some of the parts off the car bought in 63. That car is also for sale at way tobmich £ in UK.

 

[65beam]

harrington

the sebring car was quite a hit at an early invasion and also at the 2006 united. I'm sure anyone that has seen that it is for sale has also seen the asking price of the car. it's not cheap. only a few would object but it seems that the bashing of cars comes from owners that have never seen the car being bashed nor do they know the quality of the work done. in our travels over the years I have seen many rebodied cars and if I owned one of them I could retire and build a very large garage with the money from selling the car. bob's car was no different than other cars from that era if it needed a lot of repair. they got fixed using the best available. it still happens today. I'm not sure where the term TRIBUTE CAR came from but the car does carry the original VIN tag and title so it must be that car unlike others that build a car to look like another vehicle. the difference is those tribute cars don't carry the original VIN tag. as I've said before, I hope the bashers never need an organ transplant or joint replacement someday. it might be hard for them to accept the fact they been rebodied to a certain point.

 

[GlennB]

As far as the UK DVLA is concerned the car will considered genuine. That's it. End of. It wll be welcomed at SAOC meetings I am sure. GlennB

 

[alpine_64]

As far as the UK DVLA is concerned the car will considered genuine. That's it. End of. It wll be welcomed at SAOC meetings I am sure. GlennB

The car should be warmly welcomed at SAOC events, its a fantastic replica of the car that raced at sebring in 62/63. With all due respect the car is also in much better condition now than when it was in the states and much work has been done to bring it inline with the car that raced at Sebring, many of the details have been recreated and indeed sorted to make it more a accurate replica and rectify the difference between the later body used in the recreation as opposed to the early alpine body of the original car. The lineage was broken when the original body was scrapped, if you have seen the restoration photos there is conclusive proof that the car was based on later SII alpine during its reconstruction. there were also several tell tales sited in 2012 that demonstrated the rebody in 2012 which were carefully removed and corrected when it went to the UK. There are still a couple of key points that undermine its lineage, i wont discuss that openly this time as no point assisting anymore deception.

It is a shame the original rusty body was not saved, that way someone could resurrect it if they had the inclination.. again as per the discussion a few years ago when it was first for sale.. look at the extent steve alcala went to to save the original body of the factory rootes Sebring SII racer (much credit to him).

As for the DLVA... they do not look kindly on switching VIN's on cars and there are several very prominent examples of cars coming undone for VIN switching. The "works" tiger with correct VIN and green book having its registration revoked when it was discovered that that's all it had is a good example.

As for bobs reference to organ transplants, if anything that proves the point.. switching a few arts across doesn't make it "the car". If bob got Michael Jordan's heart and liver it doesn't mean he suddenly won the NBA MVP or can use jordans drivers license or social security number.. hes just an old white guy with a famous athletes organs.

The car in question is a great looking very well prepared car, it contains some parts of the original sebring racer... but having the roof and a few small parts that crossed the line back in 62/63 doesn't make it that car... embrace it for what it is.. admire the effort that has gone into it to correct many of the details of the car to make it even closer to the 63 car... enjoy it at shows and belting around the track, but be open to what it is.

If anyone want to pony up the rumored GBP100K being asked.. consider what you are getting... are you buying it because its an awesome looking fun car... or are you paying so much for a history that vanished.

ill leave it at that....

 

[65beam]

harrington

some folks just can't handle it.

 

[GlennB]

Harrington

I thought I'd clarify some points as my previous post was rushed. I took FBHVC advice about the car and also downloaded all the DVLC re-registration documents. This is not an attempt to change anyone's opinion.

As the car was never registered originally in the UK (and neither the alleged donor shell I presume) then the DVLA will regard this as a "reconstructed classic" if the owner wants to register the car for road use and get an age-related registration. The SAOC will/should be be asked to inspect the car and verify that all the major components are older than 25 years and that the car is a true representation of the marque, which it is (unless the photos lie). If the SAOC examiner (could even be me, or more likely a more experienced restorer or one of the veteran race boys) chooses to highlight the different age of any the components then the age-related registration will be based on the youngest component, but simply using the VIN details as presented. Note that neither originality or provenance is specified here.

Where it gets difficult is with an attempt to recover the "original registration". Then the DVLA will want all the detail. I once had to drive to a DVLA centre for a physical inspection of my VIN and Body number tags and rivets just to transfer a cherished registration. If such a recovery of original registration request was made, the SAOC examiner would have to declare that the VIN plate was not original. Now we are in a situation where the DVLA could choose to reject the request and other ugly things could follow on. The DVLA will be fully aware of the provenance arguments. However, since there was never any original registration then this scenario is unlikely.

I should point out that the DVLA is very accommodating for certain "reconstructions" and the precedence has been set 100's of times with Jaguars, MGs and Healeys being allowed to retain original registrations with an approved new body as well as retaining all the age-related benefits such as free historic road tax. They want to see the major components from the original car in the reconstruction. Not the same situation, but the Bob Avery car roof is certainly original and the engine will be exempt due to the documented race history, the DVLA will just want to log the new number. Who is to say the transmission isn't original? At worst we have partial originality.

My opinion is that the primary objective of the DVLA here is to eliminate use of stolen and re-circulation of dangerously repaired Write-off vehicles and the use of re-registration being done to cover up illegal activity (I'm no lawyer but provenance is probably not a crown court issue it's more a civil issue). They will want the registered keeper of a car properly identified and the vehicle registered in the correct taxation class.

If the new owner chooses to leave it as a track car then there may never need to have any discussion. It becomes the circuit and race organisers problem.

So we come back to the concept of provenance and the advice is that because there's some of the original car in the reconstruction it will legally derail any statement that the car is a replica. (are you reading Jan?) The FBHVC guidance is that the SAOC must avoid any such position and that we must leave all issues of provenance to the vendor and any new owner. The FBHVC guidance is that the SAOC must not encourage any attempt to legitimise a fraudulent vehicle. But if it passes the age-related inspection as a Harrington then we are only really talking about provenance.

Presumably anyone prepared to pay $xxx for a Harrington will have done a bit of research first and will be prepared to put a value on how much of the history they think that they can leverage, and maybe exploit along with the value of any race invitations. They will also know or learn how to engage with the different opinions within the Alpine community.

So we get back to where we started, but you can see that the only thing that is likely to come out of this is that the SAOC will accept the car as a Harrington, and that all the personal opinions anyone might have are still their own business and are not likely to have changed, and I'm not seeking to change any here. We can still all be right.

I may choose to call it the Bob Avery car. My Harrington has many battle scars and I love them!

Sincere best wishes and regards to all my SAOCA friends. GlennB

 

[alpine_64]

Glen,

Thanks for your post and clarification, as you state the car was never UK registered, so an age related registration is not an issue and the base of the replica is close, also I should state the car is clearly a sunbeam alpine no question there... and looks and is built as an accurate Harrington ... The real issue is the claim that it's the car that raced at Sebring, when infact is not.

I dont think bob avery was trying to deceive people, he just chose the most cost effective and easy way to get a solid sunbeam again. I also don't think his family when selling it understood the issue.. It was just their fathers sunbeam the rebody would not have been on their radar as an issue.

As you say you may call it the avery car, very good name for it... I think calling it a Sebring replica or tribute and noting it contains some of the original parts is also honest. The car is really cool and much effort in the uk has been put in to make it accurate to the 63 race car which is great.. The only real problem is the details are being reconstructed to try and hide its lack of lineage not because tgey want an accurate replica but for financial gain through deception.

 

[jdoclogan]

I appreciate the comments from alpine_64 and GlenB. 65beam your comments make no sense. I can't tell whether your supporting the notion that the Avery car is the "true" Sebring/NART car or you are just injecting some convoluted attack on alpine_64's comments. Either way you are out of line. The VIN appears at two locations,the VIN tag and stamped into the firewall, on any Series II based Alpine/Harrington. When the Avery car came up for sale I was in direct negotiations with the Avery family. They were unable to match the VIN on the cars firewall and the VIN plate. Also noted at the time was the use of modern rivets to attach the body number plate.

Over the past several years I have been in contact with the builder/owner of an exact replica, new bodied, or reconstruction (call it what you will) of the winning GT40, driven by Ken Miles in the 1966 Sebring race. While the car has some bits from the original "Sebring" car the majority of the car is fabricated to exact measurements of the original. The honest builder does not and will not support any claim that the car is the original "Sebring" car but is an exact replica of the 1966 winning, aluminum bodied, Sebring GT40 with several original parts from the 1966 Sebring car. His positions is very commendable as the bogus claim would add millions of dollars to the cars value. Referencing GlenB's suggestion that a "buyer beware" approach will most likely play out on the Avery car. The builder of the GT40 has the intelligence to place a value (it is not in the millions) fitting to the product being presented. Oh sure, some unscrupulous classic car flipper could buy the car, try and establish some credibility to the provenance by running it at the Goodwood classics and then claim it is indeed the original 1966 Sebring winner. However, as Paul Harvey (long time radio commentator) would say, "here is the rest of the story." The original was cut up by Carrol Shelby due to US Customs claiming the car was a foreign import and required a substantial customs fee to be paid. As a pile of aluminum on the floor of the Shelby warehouse Customs saw very little value.

 

[65beam]

harrington

not all series 2 cars had the VIN number stamped on the firewall. it was dropped at some point and that may have been when body production was switched to the new plant. my red LeMans does not have the VIN on the firewall. pressed steel attached a second tag in another area of the car that has the VIN number. I am the second owner to ever drive my red car and it's not a rebody. it's the real thing. one of my friends in Cincinnati was also in contact with bob's family trying to buy bob's car when the car was for sale on e bay. we know where it ended up. those who know the wife and me know that we are not concerned with the value of our cars other than to have them insured at a value high enough to repair them if there is damage nor are we concerned that it may not have all it's original body. I've been fortunate enough to own 21 sunbeams so what a select few have to say about my cars doesn't matter to me since it's not their concern. I'm fortunate in that i got to drive a new alpine before i was old enough to have a license to drive and now at 65 i have several to drive. I've never been without an alpine since the mid 60's and I'll be darned if I'm going to worry about whether one of my cars may be a rebody. but as you know jerry, my cars are nice. I believe you saw one of them at SUNI this past summer. it was the midnight blue car that took top honors in the alpine class. anything else?

 

[alpine_64]

For those who actually know their sunbeams the original Sebring car was a RAS car that was early enough in production to have the vin stamped in the firewall, the later SIi cars had several detail differences which gives them away as later SIi the car was rebodied with a later production body.

Some people seem to confuse their personal preference and cars with fraud.... If someone is concealing the fact the car was rebodied to increase value its fraud. If someone didn't care if they rebodied a car or not they would openly disclose the fact. Its quite simple to comprehend.... People wanting a historically significant race car want that not a replica. If they want a replica they can have one built themselves.

 

[jdoclogan]

Yes, I did see your Alpine at SUNI.

As we all sometimes do, Bob, you failed to hit the bulls-eye on the target. The 110 Harrington A models, which included the NART/Sebring Sunbeam, were built on early Series II platforms. As you rightly implied, all early Series IIs had the VIN stamped into the firewall with the VIN also appearing on the VIN plate. The NART/Sebring top must have been placed onto a late Series II, as you are suggesting, creating the Avery Sunbeam. Thus, the Avery family could not provide me with the corroborating evidence needed to complete our deal. Nor, can anyone explain away the modern rivets attaching the body number plate on the Avery Sunbeam.

The extra pressed steel TAG found behind the drivers seat was not a VIN number plate but rather a production number plate when the production went to the Rootes' Ryton-on-Dunsmore plant (early Alpine Series II/Harrington A platforms) to the Armstrong's Parkside factory (late Alpine Series II/ late Harrington Le Mans). My Harrington Le Mans has both the pressed steel plate and the stamped VIN on the firewall and VIN number plate. Being one of the first three LRX HLMs built it's platform was most likely produced during the transition period between production sites (summer/fall 1962).

Bob, we can leave this discussion with the dismal notion of purist vs non-purist in classic cars. A purist would elevate the value of an automobile with the presences of proper provenance and restorations techniques employed to maintain originality. Whereas, the non-purist wants a nice or even concourse automobile to use and/or show. The traditional blur between the two has become overwhelming in favor of the non-purist. Probably because very few cars exist that are "original." If an owner claims it is "original" then as GlenB points out leave it to the buyer to determine if the facts line up and the asking price is satisfactory.

As Don Quixote stated in The Man from La Mancha, "Facts are the enemy of the truth." So a buyer must always beware or merrily go along dismissing the truth with out prejudice.

I do respect you Bob for not claiming that your cars are "original" or have a racing history when they don't.

 

[65beam]

harrington

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[Alpineracer8]

Well, well, well...I hadn't been here in a while so I stopped into the site just now to have a look around and see what the Alpine world was up to and I stumbled upon this thread. I see that 65beam is still dispensing his brand of "logic" when it comes to VIN switching and rebodying. I can also see by his latest post that he's still providing his same old narcissistic responses to anyone who disagrees with him.

I think jdoclogan said it best when he explained the purist vs. non-purist points of view and how each type approaches the classic car hobby. And then, of course, Michael correctly restated what has been covered many times in the past on this site, which is that this type of activity (VIN switching and rebodying) is usually done not simply for the preservation of the marque but for monetary gain with an unsuspecting buyer.

Well, folks, gotta run...I've got to go finish the car I'm working on. It's got a Series IV chassis, rear quarters off of a Series II and a Series V, front fenders from a Series I and a Series V, the roof of a Harrington and it's got a roller 302 for power. However, it'll have the VIN tag off of a Tiger that was scrapped long ago, so I suppose that makes it a Tiger...(sheesh...)

 

[jdoclogan]

Once again a forum is left with marginal understandings an input from a disruptive contributor. Around the World forums and Face Book participants shake their heads.

 

[jdoclogan]

Alpineracer8 just to be clear I was writing in response to Bob's last middle school student like input as you were posting.

 

[Alpineracer8]

Alpineracer8 just to be clear I was writing in response to Bob's last middle school student like input as you were posting.

No offense taken; thanks for the clarification.

 

[Harrington Jan]

Thank you

I hope this ends this thread.

 

[jdoclogan]

Jan it doesn't end here. This story (http://www.thewholecar.com/1930-bentley-blue-train-recreation) was so related to the topic in this thread it needed to be include as an example of proper titling. Note they call the car a "recreation" and a "replica." Nothing wrong with such a reference that rings the pure truth about this piece of art work. It doesn't make it any less of a magnificent car and a commemoration of the original. One can only contemplate, imagine, or dream up its value if it were sitting next to the real car.

The under-the-hood shots show some amazing details. Like, a full set of spare spark plugs mounted on the firewall, and four carburetors. What appears to be the ignition switch has a "heat" position, which makes me think the engine is equipped with glow plugs in the inlet manifold. The radiator cap is a real gem, with its own cam and lever system. The jump seat for the third passenger, plus its location would seem to add emphasis that he, or she, is along strictly to tend bar. What a jewel.

 

[DanR]

Thanks, Doc for posting the link to such a fabulous vehicle!

DanR

 

[V6 JOSE]

I just love this car. If I owned it, I wouldn´t modify anyhing o9n it. For me to say that, is saying alot. I have never owned a car that I didn´t modify in some way.

I love the lines of the car, and the interior goes without saying. I just wish I had the asking price, because I would buy it.

Jose