Four club webinar

[Series6]

A little over a week ago I got an email requesting SAOCA participate in a phone/on line meeting with three well known Tiger clubs for the purpose of structuring judging national standards for Sunbeams. With the approval of your Board I did Saturday morning. Attending the meeting were TEAE, STOA and CAT and SAOCA. This is already in place for Mercedes Jaguar Roll Royce Porsche etc clubs

I would ask members to forward any judging or scoring sheets from any events you've attended regardless of marque.

In the webinar all three Tiger clubs stated they would like to have more Alpine participation in their events. Share information. Make friends.

Please be assured SAOCA will remain an independent club. Participating with these clubs doesn't change our bylaws or dues.

What we can gain as a club is the opportunity to be involved with other Sunbeam events. Nationally. Basically hold our invasions in conjunction with theirs.

There's work to be done but I see nothing but positives for SAOCA.

The new incoming Board will need to consider continuing but I'll attend the meeting in December and report back before I leave office.

 

[65beam]

webinar

Nick,
These are the current judging sheets for TE/AE. They will give you an idea of what is checked. I also included the summary. These are for one of our cars.

 

[Series6]

Could you email them to my club email
Please.

Thanks

 

[65beam]

webinar

Chassis and exterior sheets that didn't load . There is also a function sheet which means checking to see that everything such as all lights, horn, all 4 locks, etc all work.

 

[PROCRAFT]

Judging

Here's my take on this while the judging by TE/AE runs smoothly (so to speak) they have categories that they do not adhere to,IE. when you sign up to have your car judged there is a category for modified cars this has never been adhered to (I've never had a stock car so hence my rant on this) while I have expressed my opinion on this it falls on deft ears so to speak.
some of the explanations are that their would be to much to DO.???? and you would have to many awards.

 

[65beam]

webinar

Joel,
There is no longer a modified class for either Tigers or Alpines. Just stock and personalized.

 

[PROCRAFT]

judging

Bob , There is no such thing as a personalized car if you change something it becomes modified ? its just a horsepucky term somebody came up with JMHO. example a V6 powered alpine.

 

[Warren]

What?

The webinar may be a wait a minute moment as the Cali clubs are seeking to make the rules the same between the clubs.

 

[Series6]

My point is that it would be nice to have a definitive guide to what each of our 5 series were. If we pool information we could have that for future reference.

The major point I wanted to make was the possibility to participate in major and regional Sunbeam events, as well as share information and expertise. Also we broaden our network.

Remember, virtually every other club has this in place. Ever seen the Corvette club's guide? We ain't going there.

 

[Bill Blue]

The current system of car classification can only lead to chaos and hard feelings. The best fifty year old stock Alpine? You gotta be kidding, there are no stock Alpines left. Owners wonder what the correct carpet colors are, oblivious to the fact carpet was not stock.

We should rethink the entire classification scheme. Something like "The most stock Alpine" would be an appropriate category. Maybe the categories should be "Best Series I", Best Series II, etc. "Stockers" would have to compete with the most wild Modified within a Series.

Bill

 

[65beam]

webinar

Many items such as the rubber floor mats are NLA so how do you do a total correct restoration using items NLA? Changes or additions up to a certain point are allowed because it's a known fact that this is the case. That's the reason that the last item on each judging sheets except for "function test" is "Adherence to originality and authenticity". Each sheet also lists "considerations for adherence to originality" so judges can determine the number of points for this item. The function test is just that. Everything from lights to the console and door locks has to function properly. The judging criteria has been well thought out.

 

[mikephillips]

As someone who has judged at quite a few TE/AE United shows over the years there is probably too much subjective judgement involved. While I wouldn't want to go to where the Corvette people are, arguing over chassis chalk marks and alternator diode color strips, I do think if there are going to be national standards there should be some more objective methods of calculating points based on how far from original and how worn any particular judged category is. Correct floor mats for example, to incorrect, to carpet and so on. Of course for any personalized or modified, whichever you want to call it, of necessity it would have to be a subjective rating. One of the reasons SAOCA never really went beyond popular vote when it started was concern over a too subjective rating of one car against another and participants being unhappy or disagreeing with ratings. So anything developed should try to be as personal opinion free as practical.

 

[PROCRAFT]

judge

Good one Bill, Like how many stock Tigers are there?????? like I said some of the judging is just horsepucky!

 

[Jimjordan2]

Just a couple of points from my view. Original is just that original. If you change it to an update, or put carpet in, or better alternator, etc. etc. You just don't get those points. NLA, well, tuff shitski. NLA points.

Well, my car's restored to original condition. Well, with the exception of carpets, and interior color change, and matching covered dashpad, and radial tires, and newer alternator, early series bonnet pull, led dash lights, led instrument lights, aftermarket horns, need I go on?

The reasons I like Sunbeam people are the reasons I don't necessarily hang around with Mustang People, and Corvette People, and sometimes I have to add Tiger People, and such that argue about firewall paint drips, and chalk marks and everything else you can argue about.

We're fun people, with fun cars. Or at least the ones I meet.

But I do agree with a set of standards. Original standards.

Just my opinion. 2cents worth or less.

 

[mikephillips]

whatever direction it goes the end result should be something that gets away from the "that's you opinion" when comparing car scores as much as practical so that a winner or loser can look at the results say they understand why it was ranked where it was. And I say that as a guy who would certainly lose out when judged as strictly stock.

 

[Ken Ellis]

It would be interesting to see what SAOC does across the pond, and how that meshes with the Tiger groups.

It would also be interesting to see how many SAOCA members "care" about car show judging. Nothing at all wrong with it, for those who are focused on the competition side. And even if just a few are interested, it would be prudent for the club to have a voice in the process of determining the particulars of judging, and in making sure they're consistent from event to event, and from judge to judge. An Alpine 'wiki' page here on our new site would provide a good repository for verifiable originality, along with the discussion and reference material used to make the determination. We might need a moderator, though, as I forsee lively discussion.

Plus, if all our cars are brought back to 100% original factory spec, how will we tell them apart in the lot at the next Invasion?

 

[todd reid]

I agree with a lot of what was said above. I think this is potentially a very polarizing subject - lots of different opinions, none of which is necessarily right or wrong. It's kind of like asking who's more attractive - Pam Anderson or Grace Kelly? In the end they are both attractive, but in very different ways.

I kind of like the idea of a popular vote - 1 award for each series - and letting it go at that.

TR

 

[Alpine 1789]

It would also be interesting to see how many SAOCA members "care" about car show judging. Nothing at all wrong with it, for those who are focused on the competition side. And even if just a few are interested, it would be prudent for the club to have a voice in the process of determining the particulars of judging, and in making sure they're consistent from event to event, and from judge to judge.

I second Ken's recommendations. I think it would be worthwhile for this club to have a say in the standards, although that doesn't mean we have to apply them in our individual meets. The SAOCA has always been much more informal when it comes to judging, something many of us like. There are plenty of opportunities for those who want their cars judged by competitive standards. Let's help write those standards (cooperating with the other clubs is always a good idea IMHO) for the members who want their cars so judged, but I vote for this group staying more casual when it comes to applying them.

 

[Warren]

How did this start?

It started as a let's have concours training seminar, we can go over the Classifications. We are thinking about allowing other than 13" in stock class.

STOA and CAT were going to get together IMHO because the organizer(s) can move the rules set without prior publication .
Examples. Allowing stock cars to have internal steering rack changes "quick rack" Those that have a poor man's MG rack becomes Modified class car as design changed.
Hokanson the 1st. design of an IFS bolt on for Tiger be allowed to run in personalised and not modified. By the way make the IFS makes car drive like an 80's car and it entirely bolt on and off.

Hard top on stock car gets 5 points more "as I recall" for a hard top. This was without prior notice and deviant from many United prior events. The goal posts seem to get moved on the whim of the organizers and it shouldn't bee that way.

Little bummed that it became a multi party phone car, and not a real Webinar .

 

[65beam]

webinar

The first thing you need to do is to get members to show up for an Invasion. The last east coast invasion was largely populated by regular TE/AE members that travel to anything associated with Sunbeams. They're also members of other Sunbeam clubs around the country. There may have been a couple show up that are strictly SAOCA members. They deserve a lot of credit for driving their cars the distance they traveled to the event. This year (2017) there was no interest in having an Invasion in the east. There was an Invasion on the west coast but how many members showed up? Maybe 6?This has seemed to be the attitude of SAOCA only members. There are plans for an Invasion in March,2018 in sunny, warm S. Carolina so I hope the turnout is good. It boils down to the fact there is no reason to worry about whether to judge cars and how to do it simply because no one seems to have an interest in an Invasion and if one is planned no one shows up . I suppose this will upset some but those are the facts.