Flame Thrower (180 off)

[Van Bagley]

Hi
I am new to this site but I have owned my Series V for about 15 years
I have just rebuilt the "top end" new head, overdrive, headers, and ignition.
The idea was to switch to a "Flame Thrower" dizy. Once everything was wired and ready to go I got one loud bang the first time I turned over the motor.
Nothing after that, just a lot of cranking. So going back to basic's I replaced with the stock dizy. Lots of popping back through the Weber but nothing more.
When bolting in the Flame Thrower if feels like it's 180 off but if I change it around it doesn't seat well in the block. Same with the stock dizy.
Normally I can sort this out, but this time I need to ask for a bit of help
Any suggestions?

Van
67 Sunbeam Alpine with OD
80 Porsche 928 5sp

 

[RootesRacer]

The distributor drive has an offset key, you cant rotate it 180.

You can however swap wires 1 for 4 and 2 for 3 on the cap, which has the exact same effect.

 

[jumpinjan]

Be warned. When I rebuilt a customer's 1725, he purchased a pertronics flame-thrower, and it ran for about 15 mins and became a permanent cold ember. I quickly cleaned up his old stock (points) distributor and he's still driving it for two years!
Jan

 

[RootesRacer]

Be warned. When I rebuilt a customer's 1725, he purchased a pertronics flame-thrower, and it ran for about 15 mins and became a permanent cold ember. I quickly cleaned up his old stock (points) distributor and he's still driving it for two years!
Jan

The "flame thrower" is a basic coil that is repackaged for pertronics, nothing really special about it. That coil ABSOLUTELY requires an external ballast resistor or it will kill either the pertronics ignitor OR the points in a stock dizzy.

 

[jumpinjan]

The "flame thrower" is a basic coil that is repackaged for pertronics, nothing really special about it.

Huh? It's a distributor that Rick sells ($205), they have a sticker on the coil that says "Flame Thrower" too (I guess thats what you are taking about. I think they call all their ignition stuff "flame thrower").
http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/flame/default.aspx

 

[RootesRacer]

Huh? It's a distributor that Rick sells ($205), they have a sticker on the coil that says "Flame Thrower" too (I guess thats what you are taking about. I think they call all their ignition stuff "flame thrower").
http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/flame/default.aspx

I didnt know they sold a distributor now too...
Ive seen these new distributors, sold with points.
I guess pertronics converts them to use the Ignitor 2, which I have heard has a rather bad issue with reliability.
Doesnt surprise me that it lasted only 15 minutes.

 

[Van Bagley]

I bought the Flame Thrower Distributor from Rick, since stock dizzy seems to becoming a bit sloppy. It appeared to be a good idea at the time to have a
modern pointless distributor and I know a few guys that race MG's that use them. I wonder why they are not a good match for Sunbeam's?
I will try switching the wires around
There is always hope

Ho Ho Ho
van

 

[SIVAllan]

FWIW, I've used a distributor of that type for several thousand miles on a 1725 engine and no problem. It has been a big improvement.

If your dizzy is 180 off, I think that means the oil pump was mounted backwards.

 

[Van Bagley]

Interesting thought , but I have not touched the bottom end and it was fine before I took off the head and changed to the Flame Thrower. Could it have always been this way and I was not aware of it?
v

 

[SIVAllan]

It could have been 180 out with the wires relocated as earlier discussed.

The WSM has a picture of the top of the oil pump and provides the correct placement angle for the offsets so that the distributor will connect properly.

If you pull your distributor and look down at the top of the oil pump, you can determine if it is correct or not.

Just set the engine to TDC then don't bump over the engine while the distributor is out.

 

[MikeH]

The "flame thrower" is a basic coil that is repackaged for pertronics, nothing really special about it. That coil ABSOLUTELY requires an external ballast resistor or it will kill either the pertronics ignitor OR the points in a stock dizzy.

According to the Pertronix site, The balast resistor is remove or the resistor wire is replaced when installing the Flame Thrower distibutor.

12. If converting from a point type ignition, remove any resistance wire, or
ballast resistor that may have been previously used.
If a resistance wire is present: replace the wire with a 12-gauge copper
stranded wire. Most resistance wires begin at the engine compartment
side of the
fuse block.
If a ballast resistor is present: remove the wires attached to both sides
of the resistor. Connect all of the wires removed together at a single
point. Isolate the connection from any grounds.
Plug the Ignition switch wire into the position marked BAT on the
distributor cap.

http://www.pertronix.com/support/manuals/pdf/hei.pdf

 

[Van Bagley]

Timing

Ok, back to the original dizzy. As I read this the timing is
1-4, front to back. When I adjusted the valves from the front I went 1,3,4,2
Also as I read the WSM on page 43 it shows the distributor cap I assume clockwise with #1 at 12 #2 at 2, #4 at 6 and #3 at 9
So plug wire # 1 would go to the front of the engine and #2 next and so on.
Is this correct?
I must be really missing something.

vanster

 

[mattinoz]

Vanster,

The spark plug leads should be 1-3-4-2. The dizzy cap when mounted correctly should have lead 1 at 12 noon, and then going anti clockwise looking from the top the next postion is lead 3 then 4 then 2. The WSM describes static timing in Section B (engine) page 49.

Good luck

 

[Tom H]

Vanster, Yes, you have it right - assuming the oil pump shaft is installed correctly. Going back to the original dizzy should make no difference. Your original post suggested you thought it might be 180 out. You said you tried rotating the dizzy 180. But, as Jan said ,you cannot do that as the dizzy is keyed to the shaft with an offset. If the oil shaft is off 180 you can correct for that by connecting the wires 180 off. And yes it is possible that the shaft has been 180 out for the whole time you have owned the car.

So you need to check the oil shaft position. Rotate the crank until the car is at TDC ON THE FIRING STROKE. You need to watch the valves to verify you are at TDC with both EX and INT valves fully closed. Then look down the hole where the dizzy goes and see fig 14 in the WSM. The slot for the dizzy should be at a 45 deg angle, but slot is off center, located slightly toward the outside front . 45 years ago I broke my oil pump shaft because I tried to force the dizzy in 180 deg out because I could not see that the slot was offset.

If the offset is opposite, then the dizzy/oil pump is 180 out and you'll need to change the wires 180 to compensate.

Tom

 

[Van Bagley]

180 off

Thanks Tom
I checked everything today made sure the plug wires are in the proper order
The engine feels like it wants to start but the battery goes flat after a few try's.The battery is only about 8 months old but it's a Kragen battery.
Had it tested and its' good, so they say. Maybe I need to invest in an Interstate
or something similar as well.
Other issue is that the old dizzy is loose,as I need to move it a bit, retard and advance the coupler in the center does not hang on to the shaft very well
This was one reason I bought the Flame Thrower.
It's really maddening. It seems so close but no cigar.

van

 

[MikeH]

Are you sure your resister is good and not open. Does it sound like it wants to fire, until you release the key?

 

[Van Bagley]

resister

Tom
What do you mean by resister?
It cranks and feels like it's going to start, pops back thru the carb
once or twice.
I think I will start over starting with the valves first, matching to the timing
v

 

[Tom H]

It was Mike H , not me, that mentioned the resistor.

He was referring to the ballast resistor, if you are using one. In a stock Alpine SV , there is a ballast resistor wired between the ignition switch and the coil. And while carnking the starter there is a separate path from the starter solenoid to the coil, bypassing the ballast resistor. If the resistor is bad or has bad connections to it, then the coil only gets power while cranking, and the motor almost starts, but as soon as you release the key there is no longer any power to te coil and the car does not start. That''s what Mike was describing.

You say you checked everything. Did you pull the distributor and look down at the slot in the oil pump shaft after putiing the crank at TDC with both Ex and Int valves fully closed? Did you see that the slot was in the correct position and not 180 out ?

Tom

 

[Alpine 1789]

I have just rebuilt the "top end" new head, overdrive, headers, and ignition. I got one loud bang the first time I turned over the motor. Nothing after that, just a lot of cranking. So going back to basic's I replaced with the stock dizy. Lots of popping back through the Weber but nothing more.

Van: You may be on the right track with the valves. My distributor is 180 out and the only symptom I had when I first tried to start it was a complete lack of firing. It was like cranking the engine with no wires on the spark plugs. No bangs or popping and everything ran fine once I moved the wires to the new positions. There has only been one time when I have had symptoms anything like what you described - the first time I tried to adjust the valves and was backwards on what fully open and fully closed was. I actually had flames shoot out of the carbs! Yours is certainly not that bad, but I can't help but wonder if your valve adjustment is at fault, rather than your dizzy.

Its a long shot, but I thought I'd share it.