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electric radiator fan

Nickodell

Donation Time
Hey Nickodell, just wanted to say thanks for the info. on installing an electric fan. information was very useful.

Thanks,

Rick

You're welcome. I sketched out a wiring diagram if that would help. Also, the inline fuse is 15a, not 10.
 

slippery_biscuit

Donation Time
I've just ordered an electric fan, and was surprised at the variation in performance. I removed a TRIPAC 13" fan (set up to push) that drew about 10 amps and moved approx. 1100 cfm. I have ordered a Perma-Cool 13" fan that will draw 8 amps and move 2600 cfm. It will be set up to pull, altho both fans are reversible.

Clearly, along with all the others points brought up in this thread, the particular fan chosen for use would seem to have a significant effect on the amount of air moved.
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
It would be interesting to know which models you have chosen. I looked at the Perma-Cool site and see that, although most (all?) of their fans are reversable, and usable as Push or pull, some are designed as Push and thus less effective (80%) as push. But some are made with "straight", uncurved blades and thus seem equally effective in push or pull. I did not see a 13" fan with 2600 CFM as you described.

I would not put too much faith in the CFM rating comparisons from 2 different vendors. CFM ratings without a stated condition of back pressure are not necessarily comparable. But still it's a reasonable estimate. I see Perma Cool suggests 1600 CFM for a 4 cyl engine. So the new one should do the job.

Let us know.

Tom
 

rnimares

Donation Time
HI Tom: I purchase the fan from British Victoria Model#2-7765 with thermostat control switch.
installing was easily except when putting radiator back into car, very tight fix, fan located in front of radiator, thus pushing air through. Haven't had a chance to test since weather in northern Cal. hasn't been to good lately. Will get
out a run car on Saturday. Series IV.

Rick
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Jeff, Not to worry. It's just that a CFM rating without any description of the test conditions is a bit less specific. I would assume that within one brand the test conditions would be comparable from one unit to another. Presumably these CFMs ratings are measured in open air- no obstructions- (no radiator) in the way. To be more complete, they should state the CFM with some defined level of obstruction -usually by specifying some level of back pressure (that is created by the obstructing radiator). If every mfr specs theirs as rated in open air (unobstructed), then you can compare one to another somewhat. And that is probably as good as you can easily compare. But you could also find (with lots of work) that one fan with a lower CFM in free air, actually does a better job of cooling than another fan with higher CFM in free air, because it can maintain a higher CFM when there is a radiator in the way. This is analogous to building a car that goes faster than another on flat ground, but then when raced going up a hill, the "faster" one actually goes slower.

I thought about this in reading your descritions of the two fans. I was surprised to see the higher CFM fan from Perma-Cool actually used less current than the Tripac (8 vs 10 Amps). Then I realised that CFM is only half of the spec. Go ahead with the Perma Cool. But if it does not do a better job, you will understand why. I expect it will do a better job, but an inverse result would not be totally unexpected.

I notice also that the fan you have chosen looks like the ones described on Perma-Cool's website that are only 80% effective in Push mode. But you plan to use it in Pull mode, so that's not a problem.

I did not see this fan on Perma-Cool's website earlier and now I cannot even get their website to open.

Let us know how it works.

Tom
 

slippery_biscuit

Donation Time
Thanks, Tom. I think I understand... perhaps a bigger amperage draw would indicate a better ability to draw a load, so to speak. The TRIPAC site does show cfm for various pressures. For comparison I used the largest cfm listed, thinking if a manufacturer was going to list cfm they would take the most optimistic figure.

We'll see what happens when it's all put together.
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Jeff,

perhaps a bigger amperage draw would indicate a better ability to draw a load, so to speak.

Exactly! And as I look at the Tripac site I see they do show CFM at different pressures. And, of course, the biggest CFM number comes at "0" pressure.

Looking fwd to your results.

Tom
 

rnimares

Donation Time
Recore Radiator and insalled Elec. Fan

Just got finish installing my recore radiator and a elec. fan. My Series IV was running hot (220 - 250 degrees) before. it now runs around 120 to 130 degrees (outside temp. approx. 58 degrees) but will heat up at an idle to over 170 degrees, takes about 15 minutes. I have the electric fan set to kick in at 190 degrees but haven't had that happen yet. so here's my questions, is it bad for the car to run at such a low temp?
I'll take my answer on the air.

Thanks,

Rick
 

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
The alpine 4 cylinder optimum operating temperature should be at 185/190
This gives the best performance as well as efficiency.That is of course that the engine is in good to excellent condition.
 

rnimares

Donation Time
Chuck: Thanks for getting back to me, the water gage seems to be working, The engine is running strong, Can't figure why it is running so much cooler unless the gage and/or sensor
is off. Funny that the gage would increase while the car is at idol, could the colder weather have that much of an affect? any ideas.

Rick
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Rick,

The recored radiator is so much more effective. I have seen similar reduction in temp since my recore. I am looking fwd to a hot summer day to see how well it cools in summer. I believe that the original radiators in our Alpines were just barely adequate to cool our engines in summer. Clearly they were designed for cooler weather as found in the UK and not adequate for really hot days as we get sometimes in the US.

With the recored 3 row radiator, we have somewhat the opposite problem. I found my Alpine ran too cool last Oct when I finally got it running. I plan to install a higher temp thermostat - I think that will take care of it. But I don't think mine ran as cool as you see. Are you sure you have a thermostat in the car? Just because you have a thermostatically controlled fan does not mean you can remove the normal thermostat that controls the water flow to the radiator. And yes, the outside temperature can have a significant effect on your car's temp. If the radiator is very effective, and there is very cool air passing through the radiator as you drive, and the thermostat (or lack of one) allows the pump to circulate all the water without obstruction, you wil run cooler than in hot weather. In fact, without a thermostat, if the cooling system is sufficient, you shoud expect the engine temp to track the outside temperature quite closely. Not match it, but track it. If outside goes up 10 deg, the water temp should go up about 10 deg. The purpose of the thermostat is to regulate the water temp.

Regarding getting hotter at idle, that is exactlly as one should expect. You do not say if you use the original engine-driven fan as well as the electic. Either way, with little air being pulled by the engine fan - or no air if just the electric fan but off, that is when our engines have been most vulnerable to overheat. It might seem that with the motor working so little it produces little heat, but in truth, with little air flow, the idle heat almost always goes up.

My guess, and my hope for my own Alpine's sake, is that a new higher temp thermostat will cure my slight overly cool running. It might help yours too.

Tom
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Tom: you can remove the cooling system thermostat, but only if you restrict the amount of air coming in. In the days before the familiar t'stat appeared, people used radiator muffs to maintain the correct temp. (You still see them on vehicles operating in arctic weather, as on Ice Road Trucks.)

My dad's first car had no thermostat, but it did have a clever roller blind fitted in front of the rad., that looked exactly like the kind you might have in a window. There was a control under the dash that raised or lowered it, but of course it required constant monitoring as it wasn't automatic. My first car (a 1939 Austin) had none either (nor a water pump), but as you could buy the roller blinds from the OEM manufacturer, I fitted one. The side-valve English Ford engines that "powered" the Anglia, Prefect and Popular, right up to the early 60s, had neither thermostat nor water pump, and thus, no heater, and a lot of owners fitted the blind thing. (You could get after-market heaters that involved bolting an external water pump to the cylinder head, with a roller that bore down on the outside of the fan belt, and the necessary wiring, plumbing and hoses. They worked well if you had the blind to keep the coolant at 180).

As early as the 1930s (possibly even earlier), Rolls-Royce had a neat system where a bi-metallc device changed the pitch of the vertical grille bars, so as to close them fully when the engine was cold and progressively open them as the water temperature increased, thus keeping the coolant temp. quite well stabilized.
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Nick, I agree that you can use an air flow shutter instead of a water flow shutter to control engine temperature. I don't think that approach is as effective in diverting warm water into the passenger heater on cold mornings.

More importantly, I don't think that discussion helps Rick understand what's happening with his car.

Tom
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
HI NIckodell: Yes, a diagram would be great,

Thanks,

Rick

Sorry it took so long. I have omitted the grounds, and also my own dashboard warning lamp. Hope this helps.

img116.jpg


Added later. There is an error in the drawing. The 10a inline fuse should, of course, be installed before the junction of the hot wire to the override switch, so that all parts of the circuits are fuse protected.
 

rnimares

Donation Time
HI Tom: Replaced theromstat in my alpine yesterday, (found out that there was no Thermostat in car) with a 180 degree and the problem of low temp was solved. Car ran between 170 and 180 and idled up to 190 before electric fan kicked in. So your idea of going with a higher thermostat sounds like it should work.

Rick
 

socorob

Donation Time
pullers are always better than pushers, space permitting. That's why auto manufacturers use pullers. If you can find a way to shoehorn a 90s ford tAurus fan into a sunbeam, those are one of the best fans you can get. A lot of hot rod guys and draggers here use those. Google Taurus fan. There's pages of websites about those. I have a v6 and I measures every way possible and I don't think it would fit. I did spend the better part of a day measuring fans at a u pull it yard. I must have measured about 100 fans from every make and model out there. First I went to eBay and I think the seller was something like aeon_imports and he had diagrAms with measurements for many different ones so that helped to narrow down what Cars I even bothered to meAsure. A 1997 dodge neon fan is 2 pieces. The main piece with the fan is about 3/4 of the total width of it and it has a small piece that snaps off one side for the other 1/4. Without that small piece it's exactly the size of my radiator and just fits as a puller. It also has flaps for the air to go thru when you're moving at speed. I haven't mounted it yet to test it for airflow but I'll report back in a few weeks when I do. Oh and best of all it was like $13.
 
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