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Early Series competition front springs

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Hey, guys:

I don't know how many of us out there are racing early Series Alpines, Series I's in particular, but I need to pose a question. What are you guys doing for competition front springs? My car is still running the stock springs and it desparately needs to be stiffened up as there's way too much lean in the corners. I'm already running a 7/8" front sway bar to try to counteract the lean but I just flat need stiffer springing. I checked in this forum on another thread about running stiffer Tiger springs but was told that they are too large and will not fit a Series I, which is what I have. I suppose I could change the car over to a Series V front crossmember, but surely there's a spring application that I could find that would fit the bill for the Series I front suspension. Anybody out there have any ideas for me??

Thanks so much,
 

Jim E

Donation Time
Andy,
Seems I recall you can bolt the SV A arms and all to the SI cross but the SV cross itself will not fit to the car it is wider or some such and will not bolt up.
 

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Did the 7/8 bar make a noticeable difference over the stock bar?


Well, to tell you the truth, the car came to me with the 7/8" bar on it, so I've never driven it with the stock bar. I would imagine, however, that the inclusion of the 7/8" bar would have some stabilizing effect on the car. Let's put it this way...there's no way I'd take the car out on the track with both the stock bar and stock springs.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Years ago, several of us worked with Sunbeam specialties's sway bar vender (Stanbar IIRC) to commission the 7/8 bar for the early alpine. The later bar doesnt fit the earlier cars becuase the earlier front x-members have a lip around them that is absent on later models.

The 7/8 bar has more than a doubling of torsional force compared to the 5/8 bar.

I was one of the first to get to try this bar, in fact I may have been the first to actually drive a car with it.
When I had my turn with the prototype bar, my car still had stock front springs on it, Driving became close to neutral, as opposed to major "push" with the stock bar. High powered sweeps became faster since I wasnt scrubbing off my tires in a turn.

One thing becomes obvious when you watch what happens when jacking up one wheel, the rubber bushings distort a LOT.

I then went to nylon bushings instead of the rubber ones, and I discovered that in a good hard powered turn, I could lift the inside front tire, and symptoms of "looseness" occurred.

I have since put on higher rate front springs, and things have neutralized again.

In your quest for a neutral handling car, you will probably have to experiment with bushing type and looseness, front and rear spring rate, and you may even have to add a small rear bar if you get the front suspension too stiff.
 

mototron

Donation Time
I use tiger springs with one coil removed on my series II with a 7/8" sway bar and KYB Shocks
they fit fine with no Mods
I do believe that series I & II have same front suspension

Rocco
VRG #86 Alpine
 

sunbeam74

Silver Level Sponsor
I believe the 7/8" bar would be a nice step up even if you didn't have the urethane bushings.

The Visalia Dodge boys Alpine has the stock bar and needless to say there is a tremendous amount of lean. (I have the Eldebrock shocks for the time being... I will change to Koni).

Andy's comment, "there's no way I'd take the car out on the track with both the stock bar and stock springs", hit home... I smiled when I saw that. I expected significant lean when I took the Visalia Alpine out on the track so there was no surprise there.... and I suppose in the 60's this is the way they were run.

Jack Brabham actually complianed about the 7/8" bar as being too much!

The Sports Car Forum Alpine has the 7/8" bar and Konis and I find it stable and in the sweepers pretty neutral. In the tigher turns the front pushes.
The front lifts a wheel in tighter corners as Jarrid points out.

Steve
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
what model # of koni or kyb would a series 2 front need?

Not sure you can get konis to fit a stock SI-3 front end.. SI-3 dont have the eye connections the later cars have and i think the konis are all made for the SIV-V/Tiger .. you could switch the mounts around i guess. I think there are Spax adjustables that fit the SI-3
 

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
How much rougher would you say the 7/8 bar made the ride?

I don't think the size of the sway bar has anything to do with the ride. That's a spring and shock issue. The sway bar is only there to more or less "tie" the two sides of the front suspension together, thereby effectively limiting the amount of body roll you get in a turn. In short, if you want to install a thicker bar, go ahead; it shouldn't ruin the ride.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Andy,

The stiffer bar does affect the ride, because when a bump is encountered with one wheel, the stiffer bar doesn´t want to give as easily and transfers the jolt to the body. Why is it that the heavier bars are used in race cars? Because they affect handling by stiffening the ride to keep the body attitude flatter in the corners.

Jose
 

socorob

Donation Time
I know it will probably stiffen the ride somewhat, but im trying to find out if its a slight increase or drastic increase. Ive ridden in other kinds of cars that had a larger bar put on, and it only made a slight difference in ride on normal roads. I dont know if its the same on the alpine, i dont mind somewhat stiffer ride, i think that will feel more controllable, but i dont want to feel like im driving on a tractor.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I know it will probably stiffen the ride somewhat, but im trying to find out if its a slight increase or drastic increase. Ive ridden in other kinds of cars that had a larger bar put on, and it only made a slight difference in ride on normal roads. I dont know if its the same on the alpine, i dont mind somewhat stiffer ride, i think that will feel more controllable, but i dont want to feel like im driving on a tractor.

Like I mentioned earlier the 7/8 bar will effectively double the torsional stiffness of the bar. This would apply only to sway and differential mode bump, common mode bump will (bumps at the same time to both wheels) will only be alltered by changing the spring and damping rates.

Bone jarring potholes will feel worse with a stiffer bar, while the feel of normal smooth road driving should not be significantly effected.
 

Alpineracer8

Donation Time
Andy,

The stiffer bar does affect the ride, because when a bump is encountered with one wheel, the stiffer bar doesn´t want to give as easily and transfers the jolt to the body. Why is it that the heavier bars are used in race cars? Because they affect handling by stiffening the ride to keep the body attitude flatter in the corners.

Jose

Okay...I stand corrected...
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hi Robbie,

Are you planning on using your V6 Alpine competitively? If you aren´t, then going through the expense and trouble to put in a stiffer bar, will be of no advantage. Your Alpine rides sufficiently stiff to get it to handle beautifully, so doesn´t need more bar. I know that some guys put in a stiffer bar, because they think a high performance car should have uprated suspension. Fortunately, the Alpine has a great balance between a streetable suspension and a good handling suspension that doesn´t need upgrading, unless you are planning on racing it.

The 7/8 bar will make your Alpine ride quite a bit rougher most of the time, because most bumps are hit by just one wheel at a time. Rarely do both wheels hit the same bump at the same time, so most of the time it will be sending the shock into the chasis, where you will feel them.

If you want to do this anyway, you are free to do so, but unless you are a hard core racer, who loves feeling like he is driving a racer all the time, I suggest not usning the bigger bar.

Jose




I know it will probably stiffen the ride somewhat, but im trying to find out if its a slight increase or drastic increase. Ive ridden in other kinds of cars that had a larger bar put on, and it only made a slight difference in ride on normal roads. I dont know if its the same on the alpine, i dont mind somewhat stiffer ride, i think that will feel more controllable, but i dont want to feel like im driving on a tractor.
 

socorob

Donation Time
not planning on doiong ony kind of racing, just would like to do an occasional autocross or rally once my car is all finished, not to be competitive, just to have fun, but not be the slowest out there.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
I think you would be more than happy with your Alpine with a stock anti sway bar, at any autocross. The stock Alpine is pretty well balanced and it takes a lot of car to beat it in the twisties, especially with a V6 powering it.

Rob Weisman from Utah, ran his V6 Alpine in the autocross at the Suni previous to this last one. His suspension is totally stock and he said he did very well, even though it was his first time autocrossing. I can´t remember exactly where he placed, but I think he said he was third over all. Anyway, I can assure you that you will not be the slowest out there, unless you drive like me.

In the end, if you are happy with a rougher riding car, just to occasionally do an autocross, that is what you should do.

Jose


not planning on doiong ony kind of racing, just would like to do an occasional autocross or rally once my car is all finished, not to be competitive, just to have fun, but not be the slowest out there.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
I might chime in on this one. A stock SI/II has quite tall softish springs. In terms of doing better in autocross and still being nice (or even better) on the street i would recomend getting better front springs and better shocks.

The S3 springs from VB are a cheap and good upgrade, lowers the front a little and stiffens a little then you could add a set of spax adjustable dampers to the front. This will firm up the front, improve turn in and i believe make it a better more controled ride on the streets.

Just my .02c.
 

socorob

Donation Time
Last night in installed a 7/8" swaybar. What a nice difference. I only got to go on a 20 minute or so drive since I didnt get to finish putting it in till late, but talk about tighten the front end up nicely. Id say the ride is maybe 10% stiffer from what I can tell so far. I was purposely trying to hit bumps on 1 side of the car or the other to see how it affected the ride. It seems to be only slightly rougher than the 5/8 bar. But since my wife was with me, I didnt get to "really" test out the improved handling, I can tell the corners are a good bit flatter. I would reccommend it to anyne thinking about it. That along with the 4 bbl and offy upgrade over the weekend made it feel like a different car.
Now has anyone put a rear swaybar on their alpine?
 
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