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Dash 8

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
I am not a pilot and know little about aviation, however as a business commuter, I have flown the Dash 8 many many times an have always rather liked the aircraft. I know they had (have?) landing gear issues but never heard of anything else. Is there some other problem with this aircraft? My heart goes out to those poor folks and families, what a terrible thing.
 

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
But there were 3 guys who missed their connection on this flight because their flight from New Orleans was delayed.
 

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
Sounds like it was either a problem with icing or possibly a variance in the localizer. The pilot/tower communications can be heard here:

http://event.liveatc.net/kbuf/KBUF-Feb-13-2009-0300Z.mp3

She offers no may-day call... just a few headings, instructions and coordinates then nothing... then controller calls out looking for her after a negative response. A friend of mine knows the pilot, Becca... Very sad.

Tracking is here, along with speeds and altitude:

http://fboweb.com/track/cjc3407
 

skywords

Donation Time
That was a Q400 a variant of the Dash 8. The Dash 8 is a great airplane but I do not have the same opinion of the Q400. Looks well built and all but the moments don't look right to me just as the MD-80 is to the DC-9. They took a good platform and stretched the fuse way to much (greed). The top view of the airplane really shows this. More seats with less wing so we go fast and burn less fuel. I think for a airplane of that size it should have hot leading edges not the same rubber boots used on the DC-3 gooney bird.

The wing needs to have 20% more area reducing the wing loading.

Just my humble opinion.

Q-400 wingspan 93' fuse 107'

ph_3-view.jpg


Note the wing of DHC-4 it is longer than the fuse wingspan 95'8" fuse 72'

dehavilland_caribou.gif
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Unofficial reports were F3407 complained of icing minutes before the crash.

Hell, 106 years of flight and we still lose planes to frozen water. Deicing boots are OK on the leading edge, but sod-all use further back on the wing chord.
 

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
Rick, isn't that wing ratio (not exact) idea the same on the B-26, that made it so tough to fly? Not much wing but fast, etc. I have always wondered, on the leading edge moving boot, if under severe icing, the ice did not crust over the boot leaving it to thrash around for no purpose. Does that happen?
 

skywords

Donation Time
Rick, isn't that wing ratio (not exact) idea the same on the B-26, that made it so tough to fly? Not much wing but fast, etc. I have always wondered, on the leading edge moving boot, if under severe icing, the ice did not crust over the boot leaving it to thrash around for no purpose. Does that happen?

Are you referring to the aspect ratio? That is the ratio of the chord (width) at the root compared to the tip. A high aspect ratio wing has a long gentle taper to the the wing. I was simply referring to wing area as square feet. The gross weight of the aircraft divided by the wing area gives you the pounds per sq ft wing loading. The higher the weight and smaller the wing the higher the wing loading and the higher the Oh Sheat factor. The faster the landing speeds and stall speed.

The boots are made by Goodyear and have 1" wide channels that inflate and grow about 1/4" breaking the ice free. The boots themselves are a disruption to the airfoil and if the wing is a laminar flow design they don't tolerate any ice what so ever. I do not know what airfoil the Q400 has. I would venture to say the Q400 has ice detectors and will cycle the boots automatically. It really is not a great way to deice compared to a bleed air piccolo tube hot leading edge system. It's all about the money. If the boots cycle to often then the ice forms in the shape of the inflated boot and you are screwed. A hot leading edge has no such problems.

The data recorder and the voice recorder showed them talking about a load of ice at 16,000 ft and that was after they had turned on the deice system, they mentioned ice on the windshield and the wings. At one minute before the recording stopped they lowered the gear and flaps to 15 degrees. Pitch and roll oscillations were then recorded on the flight data recorder and they attempted to retract the gear and flaps just before impact. I think they had one hell of a load of ice. They all died instantly.

I have had a load of ice on my Cessna it sucks. I had no boots or hot L.E. I just went lower to warmer air. My dad said in the larger airplanes such as the Boeing 707 and such you just add power and the ice blows off.

One theory might be they had a flap iced up and when they went to 15 degrees of flaps one deployed and the other did not giving them what is called an asymmetrical flap malfunction rolling the aircraft on it's back. Just a theory.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Now seems certain to have been icing. I recall that if we got icing in the Victor the pilots changed altitude, and if that didn't work just accelerated and blew it off. There was no de-icing equipment, other than on the windscreens, but not much can stick on at Mach 0.85. Sometimes, for fun, they would switch off their throat mikes and discuss the situation among themselves before firewalled the thrust levers with a "HI-YO SIlLVER!" or some such over the intercom. Anything to emphacize the difference between the drivers and us peons in the rear of the cabin.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
The preliminary accident report says the plane impacted in a horizontal attitude, at 180 degrees from the flight path to the runway. The Flight Data Recorders show advanced thrust (throttle) settings, the gear in the process of retracting, the stick shaker and stick pushers both operating, and the stall warning sounding.

My guess is that they were iced up and started to lose lift at around 5,000 feet until they reached stall conditions, at which point the stick shaker and stall warning operated, and the stick pusher automatically tried to pitch the nose down to lessen the angle of attack of the wings (excessive angle of attack, not inadequate airspeed alone, causes stalls). You can hear the stick pusher warning on the doomed Air Florida Flight 90 that crashed into the Potomac in D.C. in 1982. In the event the stick pusher inadvertently activates, pilots can either overcome it by pulling back on the yoke or disabling it.

This is pure speculation, but I should not be surprised that the instinctve reaction by the pilots to the stall warning and stick pusher activation so close to the ground was to go to maximum thrust and pull back on the yokes to override the stick pusher, ending up in an irrecoverable flat spin and riding the plane down into the house.

Angle of attack: what's that? Skip the next bit if you're not into technicalities of flight. Angle of attack (AOA) may be covered in flight training, but I imagine usually inadequately. I learned in the RAF, and it was drummed into student pilots what AOA is and why it is important to understand how it affects flight. I still have my classroom notebook.

AOA is the angle between the chord of the airfoil (the width, measured front to back) and the relative wind over the wing. Lift is derived from wing area, the airfoil (the shape of the wing, looked at from the end) and AOA. Increase the AOA and you increase lift (which is why pulling back on the stick, or yoke, usually makes the aircraft climb), so long as the airflow does not separate from the wing’s surface. If it does, due to excessive AOA, lift instead decreases, causing a stall.

My class notes have this, underlined twice: A wing can stall at any power setting, airspeed or altitude, banked or level, climbing or not, loaded or light. Angle of Attack is the deciding factor.

Anyone who has gone through primary flight training has almost certainly had his/her instructor saying - with greater or less volume depending on how close to the ground - "Watch your airspeed!" Very few, I imagine, will have been told to "watch your AOA," mainly because, again I speculate, civilian general aviation instructors have only a basic idea of AOA, and because in any case the airspeed indicator (ASI) would have been the only instrument on the panel to give you any indication as to the lift on the wings. The problem is that ASIs are notorious for information lag (the seconds it takes for a change in speed to show on the dial), only give one parameter affecting lift, and as airspeed decreases, usually when beginning to land, ASI error increases just when you need it most.

Anyone who has done glider flying will be familiar with the rudimentary turn and slip indicator on the trainer - a piece of string on a bit of rod sticking up in the nose. Keep the string streaming back directly at the windshield and you are properly coordinating the stick and rudder in a turn. It was the only "instrument" the Wright brothers had, and, although of course the term was not in use at the time, it also served as their AOA indicator. If it started to droop they knew a stall was coming. So, AOA indicators of one kind or another have been with us since the dawn of manned flight.

Most airliners have AOA indicators installed, but often only connected to the autopilot; not much help if you're landing a plane manually, as the pilots obviously were. In other words, unless they had an AOA indicator in their panel, they would have no idea if it was excessive AOA leading to a stall.

To demonstrate the importance of an AOA indicator, the US Navy and Marines have "flown AOA" in carrier landings since 1957, ignoring airspeed itself, and cut their accident rate by half the first year they adopted this procedure.

Again, this is just speculation. Perhaps the pilots had AOA indicators, fully understood their use, and knew exactly what was happening, but were handed too many factors in too short a time to be able to react and apply the necessary correction. Maybe the plane was so iced up that nothing they could have done would have saved them once they dropped below the commitment altitude.
 

skywords

Donation Time
pointed 180 degrees from the airport hum. I think they were in a spin at that point. They ran out of airspeed, altitude and ideas at the same time. So very sad. The beginning of the movie Island in the sky with John Wayne flying DC-3 in the North they talk of ice being the biggest fear. A great movie with a lot of great flying footage.

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi1358758681/
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Latest from the accident investigation. They were flying (and probably landing) on autopilot, against both federal and company regulations in icing conditions. It appears that the auto. did its best, but finally gave up when they overrode the stick pusher and handed it back to them to go manual, and by that time it was much too late.

Remember the four most useless things in flying: The altitude above you, the runway behind you, the fuel in the tanks on the ground - and thirty seconds ago. Sad indeed, and probably completely avoidable.
 

skywords

Donation Time
Latest from the accident investigation. They were flying (and probably landing) on autopilot, against both federal and company regulations in icing conditions. It appears that the auto. did its best, but finally gave up when they overrode the stick pusher and handed it back to them to go manual, and by that time it was much too late.

Remember the four most useless things in flying: The altitude above you, the runway behind you, the fuel in the tanks on the ground - and thirty seconds ago. Sad indeed, and probably completely avoidable.

Your right Nick that was pilot error but we are forgetting that the airplane iced with the "DE-ICE EQUIPMENT" activated. This aircraft is certified under FAR Part 23.1419 in regards to ice protection. It states as follows and to my way of thinking the aircraft was not supposed to ice up Auto Pilot or no Auto Pilot. Note it states "in continuous maximum icing condition". So we can blame the manufacture as well as the pilots. This aircraft was not supposed to ice up period. It is time to dump the old crappy pneumatic de-icer boots and require hot leading edges on all commuter aircraft. Here is the actual FAR that this aircraft is certificated to:

§ 23.1419 Ice protection.
If certification with ice protection provisions is desired, compliance with the requirements of this section and other applicable sections of this part must be shown:

(a) An analysis must be performed to establish, on the basis of the airplane's operational needs, the adequacy of the ice protection system for the various components of the airplane. In addition, tests of the ice protection system must be conducted to demonstrate that the airplane is capable of operating safely in continuous maximum and intermittent maximum icing conditions, as described in appendix C of part 25 of this chapter. As used in this section, “Capable of operating safely,” means that airplane performance, controllability, maneuverability, and stability must not be less than that required in part 23, subpart B.

Note: The crappy rubber pneumatic boots can easily be replaced with electric hot rubber boots at a cost of about 100K to 200K per ship. This to me would be worth every penny.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Rick: Would that prevent icing farther back on the chord? As I recall, that is the major drawback with the boots; would heated leading edges eliminate it? (We all know that engine hot air bleed to the wings would fix it all, but that takes energy away from the engines, requiring more power application and thus more fuel).
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
As you guys know, I am a non flyer, so help me out here. If flying on auto pilot under icing conditions is a bad idea, why is it possible to fly with both systems engaged? It seems it would be set up so that if one is engaged, the other is inoperable.

Bill
 

skywords

Donation Time
In flight the leading edges are the only portion of the wing venerable to ice. No aircraft has ice protection further aft than the leading edge. The top of the wings are de-iced at the ramp before departure. There have been cases when ice builds too quickly during taxi and waiting for departure clearances and aircraft have either had to be de-iced again or crashed.

Too retrofit aircraft from pneumatic boots to a bleed air heated leading edge system would be cost prohibited and take energy from the compressors. I think electric boots that work like an electric blanket is the answer. I am not an engineer but the props are done this way and some early Lear jets were also. Each type of system has it's draw backs and this is something the engineers will have to wrestle with. We need a system that stops the ice from forming from the start not one that waits and then has to crack it off.

The Beech Starships I work on have the pneumatic boots because the wings are made of carbon fiber and resin and a bleed air system would melt the epoxy resins. The first Starship had a weeping fluid system that proved to be troublesome, heavy and messy.

Bill the autopilot and the de-ice are two separate systems that are only linked by regulations apparently. The crew should have been able to safely fly the approach with the autopilot with ice being a no factor. This aircraft is a known ice aircraft per FAR 23.1419 meaning it can be flown in maximum icing conditions without fear of--- well what happened.
 
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