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concourse judging manual available?

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
Bob
I remember seeing your wifes car.I'm glad for you that there is such a nice and stock car out there.It seems too many want to haggle over some minor detail.I'm so glad you listed how it was judged
I definitley like a nice stock car.However I'm pleased that I have been
in the modified class.No haggling from the experts who know so much more than I so it seems.I love sitting back at a car show and listen to the so many experts who try telling someone about my car.On the other hand when someone comes and starts to talk about it with me we end up talking for a while and then I go to see his car.The last show of the year with the Lister at the Yacht Club I hardly had a chance to sit down
I say enjoy! enjoy!
 

65beam

Donation Time
concours

michael,
i'm glad you approve. you asked for facts and i gave them to you. but the facts are the facts. now accept those facts and drop it and move on .
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
michael,
i'm glad you approve. you asked for facts and i gave them to you. but the facts are the facts. now accept those facts and drop it and move on .


Bob... im not having a go.. i accept the facts of the scores.. just asking what determines points loss.. like i said.. i really like how your car is done. .but wondering to what extent points are lost/gained on originality.. well lost really.. cant gain them.

I mean.. do you lose points if like me you have polished the rocker cover and header tank.. do you loose 1 for each or 1 for incorrect finshes in total? and what about things like a weber down draft.. is it 1 for carb, 1 for manifold 1 for air cleaner.. or just 1 point for the whole fuel system? Just curious.. i have seen the healey and jag clubs do theirs.. i think it gets a bit far when heads are pulled to measure bores!
 

65beam

Donation Time
concours

chuck,
i remenber the first time i saw your car .that was at suni 1. i saw the original race car that silverman had in several vintage races over the years and was amazed at what you had built. quite a feat! we have a saying here in rural southern ohio for folks that nit pick. but i won't repeat it. will you be able to get over to maine in october?
 

65beam

Donation Time
concours

michael,
if i lose a point for the carb, it's for the entire unit. not for each and every piece or for the bolts or washers,etc. common sense prevails on something of this nature. at least that's the way i see it.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
michael,
if i lose a point for the carb, it's for the entire unit. not for each and every piece or for the bolts or washers,etc. common sense prevails on something of this nature. at least that's the way i see it.

Bob i agree you cant take a point off for all the bolts n the wrong carb etc.. but i guess wht im sort of saying is..

if you have a SV with a DD carb.. do you lose for the carb/aircleaner.. and then loose for the manifold?

reason being.. the manifold is likely a S3/IV unit.. so if you have a S3/IV and put a DD on.. you shouldnt lose a point for the manifold.. as its factory.. but the carb yes.. and then you have the issue if you polish the maniolf.. correct or not.. do you loose points? they wer just a cast finish.

An exmaple is my SII engine.. has a polished rocker cover and header tank.. original parts.. wrong finish.. would i loose the same poins as somone who had the wrong early series header tank and lets say a non "sunbeam" lettered cover?
 

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
chuck,
i remenber the first time i saw your car .that was at suni 1. i saw the original race car that silverman had in several vintage races over the years and was amazed at what you had built. quite a feat! we have a saying here in rural southern ohio for folks that nit pick. but i won't repeat it. will you be able to get over to maine in october?

Thanks for the kind words
Would like to get to some of the big meets but hopefully we will get over our sadness and be able once more do some
 

John Boggis

Donation Time
If you look at my place in the concours for the first ever UK National you'll get an idea of what I mean by that. GlennB

Great to read your comments Glenn... or should I say Member number 8 of the UK SAOC. !!

Do you still have your series II that served you so well at the first ever UK concours event at Donnington Park in 1978.
 

John Boggis

Donation Time
i'm glad you read it john. now you understand why my wife's car has been a consistent winner in stock class at te/ae events since 1995 and also has been judged as the first place car in stock class at the last three suni events.

Bob, you have just confirmed what I have been saying, that stock Alpines are not restored to the same factory finish standards of other marques.
Do you think that if you were entered in say an Austin Healey or Jaguar concours with a car that had the wrong carb fitted and a polished chrome looking rocker cover along with a non original coil, carpets fitted where mats should be plus it was fitted with repro plastic parts in the trunk and an oil filter that was the wrong colour, it would win the event ?

So can you see where I am coming from...your car is an excellent Alpine... one of the best or it would not win the events it has. But it only wins because the standard of Alpines in concours events is not very high. And by the marks on your score sheets the judging is very casual.
 

GlennB

Silver Level Sponsor
Great to read your comments Glenn... or should I say Member number 8 of the UK SAOC. !!

Do you still have your series II that served you so well at the first ever UK concours event at Donnington Park in 1978.

Sadly that one didn't have a happy ending. Of the 6 photos I have that show the car, it's undergoing some form of surgery in 3 of them, which just about matches it's driving record. That period was a low one for me, and after a major engine problem and being forced to sell it for spares, I couldn't afford any car for about a year and didn't feel that I could stay in the club without an Alpine. It's just nice to be back. GB
 

Series3Scott

Co-Founder/Past President
Platinum Level Sponsor
This has been both fun and painful to watch. It always seems to get people upset and defensive. To answer the question, there is really no true, agreed upon standard of judging for the Sunbeam Alpine - at least here in America. When Ian and I began discussing the formation of this club we tried to tackle the idea of setting the standard, with a judge's manual and everything (using the AACA National Judging manual as a guideline) but in the end realized we just don't have enough people on board, with the same understanding of what would define "stock" and "factory". Plus, in the end, who really cares? I've been with the Bloomington Gold crowd and their pristine Corvettes - those guys are scared to death to actually start their cars and drive them, so where's the fun in that? They nit pick over whether the screw should have a phillips head or a slotted head. They agonize over how much overspray should be on certain chassis parts to get it "just right". Why? Weren't these vehicles meant to be driven and enjoyed?

Now before everyone starts pointing the purist finger back at me (I would deserve it since I've flown that flag for years), realize I don't enter my car into any real judged events because it too could be picked apart. It's a nicely done Series 3 (with original rubber mats!) but it also has a Weber for daily driving, a Pertronix ignition system, some reproduction parts, and Ed's patented voltage regulator under the dash. If I really wanted to make a 100 point Alpine I would have to spend A LOT more money and get so anal about it that I wouldn't be able to truly enjoy the car.

Let's pick on Bob Webb for a minute (mainly because it's fun, he's been active on this thread, and he's got a really nice car). Bob and I attended the British car show down in South Carolina, the one hosted by Eric Gibeaut and Todd Smith. While Bob was trailering his pristine Alpine (enclosed trailer), Ian and I jumped into my Alpine and drove the entire distance (I believe round trip was something like 1,200 miles). I would argue we had more fun - we got the full Alpine experience - we lived in the car for three days, listening to all the various bumps and squeeks, always wondering if something would break. In the end we both thought "this is what it's all about". Bob didn't get that experience. Once he arrived he pulled his car out of the trailer and then drove around the town. Where's the fun in that? Now, in Bob's defense, he and his wife spent a ton of money on the restoration of that car, and it shows, but I for one do not want to have to worry about any bugs hitting my chrome, or whether the mud got splashed up under the car during a drive. I guess it really comes down to your personal philosphy - he and I are enjoying our cars in different ways.

Back to concours judging for a minute. Unless we're all willing to accept some governing body's interpretation of what "stock" and "factory" are, there will always be heated arguments and debates. Part of the difficulty in establishing a baseline is there is very little of the factory records left, which means we have to rely upon actual survivors, press photos, and other documentation to determine what's right. The BMC guys for example have it made - all the factory records exist, so it's easy to determine what's correct and what's not. Then you get into the value of the car. Until the Alpine really starts to have some true collector value, work like constructing a judging manual just won't happen. With the Tiger's value climbing steadily over the yeasr, people realized they'd better start defining these things to uphold and justify the climbing values. (not to mention all the fakes popping up on the market).

I don't know, maybe I'm getting older, wiser, and I'm seeing this through a different lens. Twenty years ago I would have stepped over my dead grandmother's body for a car like John Boggis has - over for Ian's Harrington A. But these days I'm content with what I have, and will enjoy it as I see fit. You'll notice for the Invasion we have a very informal awards process - basically popular choice. That way everyone has a chance and we all have a good time.

Sorry for the rambling. In summary, I don't think the Alpine world has matured enough yet, and the values are not there yet, for us to consider writing the definitive concours judging manual. We're too disorganized and fractionalized at the moment.
 

tony perrett

Gold Level Sponsor
This is the most sense that I've read for a long time. I did the Concours thing years ago with my Alpine and Rapier and found that many owners took their cars and themselves far too seriously. Once the fun element disappears from our hobby (and that is all it is) it is time to move on.
 

65beam

Donation Time
concours

scott,

as you're probably aware of this, there is a good reason the wife and i have not driven our cars for several years. the blue alpine has been driven to various parts of the country in the past. if you were in s.carolina you probably noticed that she was unable to walk any distance at all. the sunbeam was not something we could travel in. the trailer was neccessary in order for both of us to travel to all the places we go in a year. after extensive surgery last friday we may be able to drive them again. her leg brace will be history and we should not be restricted anymore. three months off the leg and then rehab may make the difference. only time will tell. in the meantime the car will travel to the invasion in it's trailer.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
I'd pay good money to see an Alpine contest where that had to be done in order to determine a winner.

John... if you make the event far enough away.. chances are people will be pulling heads to do the gaskets anyway.. so i can see it working!! :D:D
 

Limey

Donation Time
john,
old chinese proverb say: he who has done nothing makes no mistakes!

To be fair John has done and is doing plenty, Mr Boggis worked hard to afford the Alpine he now owns. Then he spent a year just detailing the engine bay. He drives it to many classic car shows and beats Jags, Healeys, Fords to win best at show. He also went to the effort of making a web page so others can reference his car etc.

Concours is irrelevant; you can build an E type Jag, Morris Minor or MG from entirely new made parts and in a small club like the Alpine the judging is so subjective as to mean nothing. I think that members should just park up next to each other and chat and sod the points. Concours is dead. It doesn't move things forward any more. Now, if some one told me my car was a 'Beaut' it would mean much, much more than a crappy cup.
I know that silverware does not interest John at all. He shows his car for fellow enthusiast to enjoy. However at the Alpine National his car did not sweep the board as it deserved. I watched in sad amazement as others collected the cups for comparatively much lesser efforts. Seeing that, I decided never to put mine in to an Alpine National concours.

When I started my resto the top national prize was my dream but now I have realised that this is a dead end and moved way past that. It is irrelevant to the Alpine marque and to my pleasure. The only people who I will ask to 'judge' my car will be people like John Boggis, Ian or Jan, who actually know what a correct car looks like.

I pushed for this 'Factory Correct' forum because I became interested in the little period details that i didn't know existed that makes this resto for me really interesting and frankly if you are going to spend 8 years and £??,000 rebuilding a car then you might as well go the extra yard and get it time warp correct for posterity and maybe record or reproduce a detail before it's forgotten.

John should be thanked for being a helpful custodian and open helpful member. He is perfectly correct in what he says but it's no surprise because we are a smaller and happily less regimented club. But if you like comparing your best efforts with others then go ahead and concours by all means
 

agmason

Donation Time
There is nothing wrong with having a driver or trailer queen, either will give satisfaction for the owner. It depends on what you as the owner is willing to spend time and money on. A factory correct manual would be a great help for those who choose to go that route. I recall seeing photos of a grey color Alpine (MK IV or V) that has very low mileage (less than 10,000) that would be a good starting point for a book of that nature.

Local to me is a 21,000 mile Alpine with all Rootes factory and accessory options and every time I see it at car shows, I look it over and take photos. Now that is another car worth documenting. My car is a Tiger but there is enough similarity with a Alpine to make it worhwhile checking out.
 
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