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concourse judging manual available?

64beam

Donation Time
Good question Kim. I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm sure there would be some sort of guide somewhere. Is there any question you have in particular?

Regards, Robin.
 

agmason

Donation Time
I doubt one has ever been published. The knowledge is out there I'm sure but someone has to compile it into a book.
 

atallamcs

Donation Time
Concours manual

I do not think there is one for Sunbeams. Most of the major Concours events have their judging criteria available on their web sites. Having been in many of these with my Tiger, Harrington and Race Car, they (the judges) look at how close to STOCK and go from there. If you deviate, they will notice if they have done their research in advance as they ususally do.
Bill
 

65sunbeam

SAOCA Membership Director
Diamond Level Sponsor
Tigers East/Alpines East uses the following guidelines at their United each year during their All Rootes Car Show. http://teae.org/2009/concours-rules-and-guidelines/ It makes it easier to determine which class to place your car in and things to look for to prepare.
At the Invasion this year Bob B. will be our All Rootes Car Show organizer and we will have a pretty informal show on the Saturday of the Invasion. There is a place for all Rootes cars-those on trailers, driven or pushed to the event. I would hope that no one misses any TE/AE or SAOCA event because "My Sunbeam does not look too good". You should see my S5 Alpine sometime.....!
 

fireboltgirl

Donation Time
plating for hardware to stock specs

Thank you for all the replies. This is my first Sunbeam restoration. I have all of the nuts, bolts and hardware from my Series 3 sandblasted. I would like to have them plated according to stock specs. I imagine that some items should be silver cad and others black, correct?

Kim
Series 3
Tiger II
 

John Boggis

Donation Time
I do not think there is one for Sunbeams. Most of the major Concours events have their judging criteria available on their web sites. Having been in many of these with my Tiger, Harrington and Race Car, they (the judges) look at how close to STOCK and go from there. If you deviate, they will notice if they have done their research in advance as they ususally do.
Bill

Bill, It is strange that Alpine owners do not do true concours. If you go to a Triumph,Healey,Jaguar etc show you will see lots of vehicles in perfect factory spec looking like the day they rolled off the assembly line...not so Alpines.

In fact I have never seen a concours Alpine in the UK ! or for that a US car on this forum that could really be classed as concours. I have seen some good examples of the marque but they always have a few incorrect items. This is not a criticism but a observation.
I am looking forward to seeing Olivers (Limey) series II resto as i know this will be a true concours car on completion.
This is how the Healey boys do it. http://www.healeyclub.org/concours.aspx
 

Limey

Donation Time
Its the journey not the destination...

Thanks for the mention John (when are you going to do it properly and get those pimped carpets out and the correct rubber mats in..;)) and good luck Fireboltgirl. As an owner of the one of earlier series cars you have chosen a heavier burden than others because the parts are scarcer and so is the information. The upside is is that you have the rarest alpine made so you will (and do) have a very special car.

An over restored car looks like a boiled sweet so they say. Keep it period and you can't do wrong.

I've learnt that 99% of the rebuild is straightforward money, time and attention to detail. The other 1%, is the hard bit and an ongoing process but the most rewarding. I am learning and finding out things I didn't now even existed when I started, like the oil filter decal, radiator label, door shut stickers, wheel jack label, diff housing yellow and green paint marks, prop paint marks, that the rear springs and brake drums were not painted just bare metal ready to rust; that the back axle was assembled and then painted (possibly the same for the front axle as well) and many things I'm yet to find out.

Non of the above are at all essential or even necessary to know.(some may be wrong)

PM and I will send you a set of exact rear spring binder rubbers FOC. I have 190ft to get rid of, enough for 60 alpines. I had to buy a minimum 200ft for $400 from the makers just to get the 3 feet I needed. Now how daft is that... There is a dark side, even to Alpine restoration:eek: You have been warned. It's too late for me but you may yet save yourself.............

Good luck

Oliver
 

Alpine Bob

Donation Time
I have a copy of the AACA Concours Judging guide. I'll try to make a copy of the classes our Alpines & Tigers are in and try to post here. (With the help of maybe Andrew M or someone)
 

John Boggis

Donation Time
Thanks for the mention John (when are you going to do it properly and get those pimped carpets out and the correct rubber mats in..;))

Now come on Olly, you know as well as me that GT models only came with carpets. :rolleyes:
Now just so you do not feel on your own with correct detailing when I took the old carpets out... because they had faded in places (strange as the seat colour had remained perfect) I purchased a roll of the original blue edging and had the old carpets sent to the new car carpet makers who made them to the same spec as the factory ones including the fastenings. The only thing i could not reproduce was the carpet over the tunnel which was moulded on original GT cars.
 

Limey

Donation Time
Sorry John,

You know I have no understanding of post '63 Aplines. Without the fins they sort of fade and merge with MGs.:p Only joking!:rolleyes:

Seriously, trans tunnel carpet is a challenge I am going to come up against soonish. I believe they were all made as one piece steam moulded, tho I can't imagine how they made a flat carpet conform to that shape, steam or no. Gawd knows how to replicate that. I expect I will have to cough up a not inconsiderable number of Sovs to a Rolls Royce type upholsterer bloke to fine cut, stitch and nap a near copy come the time but what with the price of a good claret and the servants wanting a rise I don't know what I shall do....

If I find an effective carpet bender I'll let you know.

Oliver
 

65beam

Donation Time
concours

john,
take time to read the post that 65sunbeam put up pertaining to the guidelines for TE/AE. you'll notice that concours does not neccesarily mean factory original. there are changes that can be made to the cars and there are other concours classes since everybody does not hold the same thoughts on how their cars should be built. they also allow the use of dealer items for a stock car. i know that must be hard for you to understand but that's the facts.
 

John Boggis

Donation Time
Bob, I have just read through the TE/AE Guidlines and can see that as here in the UK they have different classes in the concours events. Now we are not talking the personalized section here where anything and everyting is allowed from non-standard paint to Toyota engines... those are subjective scoring events... but a fun one where owners enjoy having individual looking Alpines.

We are talking Stock and the TE/AE define that... "as manufactured" condition.
Dealer options are always allowed in concours as long as they are correct for the time frame of a particular series and are listed as a Rootes option/accessory.

The TE/AE guidlines are quite clear..they are looking for as close to factory as possible. Owners cars are marked down on finish and incorrect specification e.g. chrome rocker covers or incorrect interiors.
 

65beam

Donation Time
concours

i'm glad you read it john. now you understand why my wife's car has been a consistent winner in stock class at te/ae events since 1995 and also has been judged as the first place car in stock class at the last three suni events.
 

John Boggis

Donation Time
It is strange that Alpine owners do not do true concours. If you go to a Triumph,Healey,Jaguar etc show you will see lots of vehicles in perfect factory spec looking like the day they rolled off the assembly line...not so Alpines.

In fact I have never seen a concours Alpine in the UK ! or for that a US car on this forum that could really be classed as concours. I have seen some good examples of the marque but they always have a few incorrect items. This is not a criticism but a observation.[/URL]

Bob, your missing the point I am trying to make... I was saying that the average standard of our concours Alpines in comparison to other marques is quite low.

Where other car clubs have a good sprinkling of factory perfect cars... I have yet to see an Alpine from the UK or the US that has been restored or kept in a "as manfactured" condition" to quote the guideline requirements of the TE/AE for the Stock Alpine Concours event. When they say as manufactured I take it they mean ...as it came out of the factory.

You say your wifes car has been a consistant winner of the stock class at the TE/AE concours. Is this the blue Series V ? If so how close would you say it is to the "as manufactured" standard ?
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
You say your wifes car has been a consistant winner of the stock class at the TE/AE concours. Is this the blue Series V ? If so how close would you say it is to the "as manufactured" standard ?

You can have a car with a V6 win the stock section of the concourse.. you can have a car with hot pink paint win.. it all depends on the competition it faces.

The true way to determine how good a car is has nothing to do with win/lose.. it would be on points score.. how many points did it lose for non original parts. winning just means beating what else was there.
 

GlennB

Silver Level Sponsor
I'm inclined to agree, but would say that the relatively slow and reluctant start to Alpine acceptance is partially responsible. Well into the 70's Alpines were not considered in the same light as Healeys, TRs and MGs. The MG owners I knew felt that the Alpine was a 2nd class option - mistaken in my view. Spares were difficult and most new sills didn't fit. People only felt that it was worth spending serious money to repair and preserve them after the UK classic car movement grew to encompass these previously considered fringe cars - partially thanks to your car John, which raised the profile of the club. However, even by that point many cars had been 'modified' and that's a difficult thing to reverse.

I'll drink to 100% originality - but I'll also drink to any car that has been kept on the road through difficult circumstances even if it fails the originality test.

If you look at may place in the concours for the first ever UK National you'll get an idea of what I mean by that. GlennB
 

65beam

Donation Time
concours

ok,
the blue car was TWO POINTS short of a perfect score at suni this past june. i also have a sheet here for it's last TE/AE meet. those points are as follows. did some things before suni. hope this answers some question as to why it takes a trophy every once in awhile. anything else you need? by the way ,it will never be 100% original since i would NEVER put rubber mats in it. carpet feels real nice on bare toes.


function 22 of 22
chassis 23 of 23
eng compartment 34 of 35 lost one for originality
trunk 22 of 22
interior 33 of 35 scuff on steer wheel - 1 point
originality 1 point
exterior 54 of 55 lost one for originality ( perfect chrome )
that's 188 out of 192 possible.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
ok,
the blue car was TWO POINTS short of a perfect score at suni this past june. i also have a sheet here for it's last TE/AE meet. those points are as follows. did some things before suni. hope this answers some question as to why it takes a trophy every once in awhile. anything else you need? by the way ,it will never be 100% original since i would NEVER put rubber mats in it. carpet feels real nice on bare toes.


function 22 of 22
chassis 23 of 23
eng compartment 34 of 35 lost one for originality
trunk 22 of 22
interior 33 of 35 scuff on steer wheel - 1 point
originality 1 point
exterior 54 of 55 lost one for originality ( perfect chrome )
that's 188 out of 192 possible.


bob is that the blue SV i have seen pics of?

The blue one is one of the nicest SV's i've seen even in pictures.. but there was quite alot of non-original parts on it in the engine bay, and parts not finshed as per original.. so whats the weighting for original v modfied?

I should try and grab a sheet for the concourse here.. had some guidelines on how to deduct points..
 
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