checklist 4 fitting an overdrive into an S1

[Cali_59]

Hi all,
Maybe someone can point me in the right direction to research what is entailed in fitting an OD into a non OD S1. I assume the driveshaft / Dif ?/Motor mounts? willall have to be modified or correct ones located. Are there previous threads covering this? I did find Great threads on many OD subjects but not a 'checklist' or how to sort of thread.
Thanks.

 

[sunalp]

Basically, so long as you have an O/D gearbox ( with an O/D unit attached) it will bolt up to the
engine . You don't have to change anything except have your driveshaft shortened. I believe
the O/D drive shaft is something like 36" ( thereabouts) but after you have it mounted you can measure
and get the correct length. All the trans mounts you currently have will work just fine.

After that, you need an O/D switch which mounts on the steering column, a wiring harness from the switch
to the relay, you need the relay and wiring harness to the trans switch, and of course the trans switch itself.
These are all available parts. Try Jeff Howarth (jeff.v8tiger@gmail.com) as he's supplied many parts for me
on O/D conversions I've done. The trans switch and speedo cable you can get from either SS or CS.

Oh yeah, you'll also need an O/D speedo!

Hope that helps.
Cheers!
Steve

 

[Alpine Addict]

You will also need a new speedometer cable to OD one is longer

 

[Cali_59]

Thanks Guys!, I've been busy searching the archives..reading up.
Seems I may need to get my Speedo re-calibrated as well. I'm not sure if this is for sure.
She's a pretty early S1 #733. a few questions:
Is my rear end's gear ratio ok, or is it recommended that be updated to a unit with a better gear ratio?
Is it possible to reinstall the Engine and OD attached as one unit? Or is that a nightmare due to the extra length?
Can I use my S1 clutch disc/ pressure plate/clutch fork and release bearing with a S.V OD, or are there big differences?

 

[sunalp]

Not sure about your rear ratio, I'm better on the later cars. I know a Series 3 had a 3.89 which from
what I've heard is ideal for the O/D. Don't hold me to that as that's what I remember and that gets harder
with age!

As far as putting the engine/trans in as a unit it can be done. You have to get the car up fairly high as the
unit has to be almost straight up & down to get it in there, and the extra length of the O/D tail makes it
just that more interesting! I believe the splines on the Series V are different from the Series 1. I had a
Series IV that had an earlier pressure plate in it and that worked just fine. The forks may be different
and that may be the reason to use a different throw out bearing.

hope that helped.
Cheers!
Steve

 

[beamdream]

Hi all,
Maybe someone can point me in the right direction to research what is entailed in fitting an OD into a non OD S1. I assume the driveshaft / Dif ?/Motor mounts? willall have to be modified or correct ones located. Are there previous threads covering this? I did find Great threads on many OD subjects but not a 'checklist' or how to sort of thread.
Thanks.

Which Series Alpine is your OD box from ? that could be a problem, viz clutch / throw out bearing and input shaft spline.

Not insurmountable but you may have to play mix and match with these bits; as to installing I can tell you from personal experience that with an S1 you cannot remove/install an OD trans from underneath, the floor pan tunnel does not allow enough clearance to get the tail end thru the X member.

Sorry just saw that your OD box is from an SV; so the output splines will be different to the S1 tailshaft and you will need to fiddle with clutch/release bearing etc as they are different size to S1

 

[hartmandm]

Seems I may need to get my Speedo re-calibrated as well. I'm not sure if this is for sure.
She's a pretty early S1 #733.

If you want an accurate speedometer & odometer, you will need to account for the different revolutions per mile in the speedo cable you will have with the Series V OD.



The series 1 regular gearbox setup was a mix of 1020 & 1000 revolutions per mile with a 3.89 rear. You should see the 1020 or 1000 number on the speedometer face plate, just below the center of the face plate.



The series V overdrive gearbox setup is 1504 revolutions per mile with a 4.22 rear.

Double check my logic and math, but if the tire diameter didn't change from series 1 to V (someone will hopefully chime in if the tire size changed...), I expect you will have (3.89 / 4.22) * 1504 = 1386 revolutions per mile with the series V OD and the 3.89 rear. If you have a speedometer with 1020 revolutions per mile, the speedo cable will be rotating 35.8% faster than the speedometer wants. I.e. 50 mph will appear as 68 mph on the speedometer.

Some gauge info available at: http://wp.mhartman.net/home/cars/sunbeam/alpine/gauges

Mike

 

[Gary T]

My Series II Alpine came with OD and a 4.22 rear end. The face of the speedometer shows SN6117/02 and 980 Revs/Mile, which fills in the ? shown on the mhartman chart. I will not be using this speedometer, since I changed to a 3.89 rear end gear and a full synchro transmission. PM me if you want to buy the speedometer.

 

[Bill Blue]

All O.D. cars were supposed to be fitted with 4.22, except for Series 3, which got 3.89 across the board. That is supposed to be. To paraphrase Flip Wilson, What you have is what you got.

Bill

 

[hartmandm]

My Series II Alpine came with OD and a 4.22 rear end. The face of the speedometer shows SN6117/02 and 980 Revs/Mile, which fills in the ? shown on the mhartman chart.

Thanks Gary! I'll update the gauge chart with that info.

Mike

 

[Cali_59]

Hi Gary,thanks for your input! much appreciated! You said you went went from a 4.22 to a 3.89. What did this accomplish? / was this a necessary?
Also, you said you swapped to an all synchro trans.. was this an OD unit or stock? If OD, what series was it for? Is the speed difference from a 4.22 to a 3.89 noticeable, ( on the freeway? )

I will dig back into my reading on posts about OD installs and swaps. Just trying to choose the best and most reasonable path to take.
I will PM you if I find I need that speedometer you have, and thank you!
Regards, Chris

 

[Cali_59]

Sorry for delay replying, I am on a short trip.
Thanks again for all the Info!

Mike, I'm piecing together your great info and others.. if I leave my 3.89..then I need the 980 speedo? and not the 1000or 1020.

So the Revolutions with the 3.89 w/V OD=1386? and the 4.22 is 1504 w/V OD?
I take it that the 4.22 is a vast improvement at all speeds.
I also have asked Gary this, is the freeway speed much better with the 4.22 vs 3.89?

As I am starting from scratch, I'm akin to a 2 yr old with lots of questions. ( but why? )
I now have a S V overdrive being shipped from UK and a stock 59 S1, and would like to get all the bits functionally correct.
From what I gather,
1. Speedometer cable needs to be longer
2. Speedometer 'needs' to be synchronized to my OD and diff.combination ( a bit confused which combos will work with what here. )
3. Drive Shaft shortened , ( 36" or so )
4. OD Relay/ OD switch installed and wired
5. There are 3 versions of the OD speedometer 980/1000/1020 for the series 1, which should correlate to the Differential and which Trans a model may have had,.. but
The chart does not tell of which OD/Diff these speedos correlate to.,and so I'm not getting too much from it, although it is a great info sheet.

I have to check to see which speedo/diff I have.

here is where I got confused..
Gary has stated that he swapped out of his stock 4.22/w OD and went back to a 3.89, but did not say whether his new trans was an OD or what version it was, just that it was all synchro. I asked for clarification.
Which brings up the question, can I use my stock dif and just fit the correct version of speedo for the combo of 3.89 and a S V OD?

On a side note, My rear end has never been worked on ( as yet). She has one bad leak on passenger side hub seal.
I am open to upgrade if its the best or only thing to do.
can the 4.22 fit right inside a early S1 rear end?.. axles still the same spline/teeth?

Cheers, Chris

 

[Gary T]

My car Series II was built with overdrive, but when I bought it the overdrive was removed. Rear end was then 4.22 and without the overdrive I did not want that ratio. I also did not like the rear brakes on the Series II and I upgraded (my opinion) to Series III rear end at 3.89 with backing plates and brakes. This also meant I had to change the emergency brake from Series III to Series II.

I was also going to use a Series III close ratio transmission (I have 2 of them) until I got a full synchro unit. I asked club members whether or not the close ratio was any better than the full synchro unit. Hands down the choice was full synchro, which I plan to use. My car is quite a long time away from driving, so I will not be able to test my changes.

 

[Cali_59]

so.. If series 3 got the 3.89, They dropped the Dif ration for the OD. Which in essence s just running the stock dif. ( which slowed the cars down.)
I guess which speedo they used may be irreverent, seeing as I have a SV OD, and what gear ratios the different versions has is another kettle of fish.

 

[Cali_59]

Thanks Gary, thanks for addressing my confusion. no OD.
I am not going to assume I can use my 3.89 with V OD just yet..
Do you know if as just swapping out the3.89 with a 4.22 unit inside the rear end is doable?

 

[Cali_59]

Thanks for your input Beamdream!,,Ok that brings me to, If I use my S1 bell housing, which the clutch/release arm is attached to, will this not be the ticket? Did they change the bell housing mounting screw placements as the models ascended..1-V?

 

[Cali_59]

Well, As I read up.. the puzzle pieces come together. Posted Photos of the unit I got from UK. and it's kind of funny, like I've seen this unit before. sold before on ebay? ..or destiny.. lol.
Turns out It looks like I have a 10 spline output shaft, which from a reply in another thread informs that mine may not be S V OD. and a rethink of which speedo I may need is in order.
This is probably where I should have started in hindsight.

 

[hartmandm]

Chris,

You can see the rear ends by Series here: http://sunbeamalpine.org/the-series-sunbeam-alpine/

In the gauge table, you see entries for speedometers for the "Standard" gearbox and for "Standard O/D" gearbox. The revolutions per mile are for having the rear end that Rootes would have used with the car (as indicated by the information at the link above).

e.g.
series 1, standard gearbox, 3.89 rear was either 1000 or 1020 revs per mile.
series 1, overdrive gearbox, 4.22 rear was 980 revs per mile.

The series 3 OD speedo was 1408 revs per mile. That is only 1.6% off from 1386 revs per mile. But the series 3 speedo won't look like your series 1 speedo, and it does not have the Indicator lights integrated into the speedo, like the series 1.

If you want to use your existing series 1 speedo, you should be able to get a gear reducer to reduce the revs per mile provided by the speedo cable and make your setup accurate. I suggest you also figure out what diameter tires you will be using and you can spec the gear reducer to take into account differences in your tire diameter from the stock tire diameter.

The 25 spline transmission shafts were introduced late in the series V production (VINs B395017309 Std., B39S017327 O/D). So most series V transmissions were 10 splines.

Mike

 

[Cali_59]

wow thanks!!

 

[Cali_59]

Is there a chart of the different OD units?. Can one get the model # off the OD unit body or Info plate? ( I only saw patent #'s )
I posted some pics.