BRAKES ~ HELP ~ I'm DESPERATE!!!!!!

[67alpine]

Has anyone any ideas regarding a problem that I have with my brakes ......... my Series V came without the servo unit fitted, it had evidently been faulty and so the previous owner removed it and by-passed it, but kindly left it in the boot when I bought it. I have never actually got round to fitting a service kit to it and then putting it back in the brake system, the brakes have always responded well and it has always been one of these jobs that I will get round to eventually!! However having not used the car for the last 18 months due to ill health, I rolled her out of the garage at the weekend and guess what ... the brakes are playing up and sticking on at the rear!! So I jack her up and eventually manage to remove the rear hubs and find that both rear wheel cylinders are gunked and messed up and one is solid!
So I decide to bite the bullet and invest in a pair of new Girling rear wheel cylinders and proceed to fit them and bleed the system. Guess what ... the brakes come on but still seem to take for ever to release. An old friend said that it might be the pull-off springs that have stretched and got tired over the last 40 years?

Does anyone have any ideas?????????????????????

After 18 months being unable to get behind the wheel I'm desperate!!!

Regards

Clive

 

[serIIalpine]

Your rubber brake lines have collapsed internally.

They should be replaced.

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[mikephillips]

Could be the hose as suggested. You might also try bypassing the booster temporarily and see if the problem goes away since it could be the vaccum piston sticking.

 

[skywords]

If your wheel cylinders were gunked up it stands to reason that your master cylinder could use a little freshing up. I just did two of my cars. Did you check the front brakes for dragging also? The rear brake assemblies are really very simple and I doubt the springs are weak for they don't stretch very far in service. Now corroded maybe? Also blow the brake lines out to make sure they clear and unobstructed.

The Series V have different adjusters on the shoes that I have never delt with so I cannot speak of them.

Oh and I am glad to hear you are feeling better.

 

[bcbeamer]

I would also suggest replaceing the brake hoses. I ran into the same problem and after replacing new cyl twice, shoes spring the brakes still stayed on. I replaced the hoses problem solved

 

[Nickodell]

Could be the hose as suggested. You might also try bypassing the booster temporarily and see if the problem goes away since it could be the vaccum piston sticking.

That was already done by the DPO.

 

[RootesRooter]

I go with what your old friend originally suggested: the brake return springs. When the springs go 'soft' the brakes are quick to lock up and slow to release.

If replacing those doesn't help, move on to the flexible hoses.

Dick Sanders
Kent, WA

P.S. Just to be sure, you have NOT yet rebuilt and re-installed the brake booster.

 

[67alpine]

Re : BRAKES ~ HELP ~ I'm DESPERATE!!!!!!

First of all many thanks for all of your quick replies.

I can confirm that I have not yet re-fitted the servo unit as per your reply mikephillips .... what does DPO stand for Nickodell ?

The front brakes where there are flexible hoses are OK.

I will blow the brake lines out to make sure they clear and unobstructed as per your comments skywords.


Many thanks

Clive

 

[Tom H]

Clive,

There is a rubber brake hose for the rear axle also. It is near the center of the car. And note that you cannot always tell the condition of a hose by t eoutside appearance.

Tom H

 

[husky drvr]

what does DPO stand for Nickodell ?

Many thanks

Clive

I am not Nick, but the answer is D___ Previous Owner. Just pick the proper "D" word to fill in the blank, depending on the problem or situation.



HTH,

 

[Bill Blue]

I've always thought the "D" stood for "Delightfull".

Sometimes I"m pretty sure the "P" stands for "Present". But that is only when the "D" does not stand for "Delightfull".

Bill

 

[Nickodell]

Clive, another possibility is the part of the assembly that allows the shoes to move slightly and center themselves when engaging with the drum has jammed from corrosion. It's a long time since I did a rear brake job on Matilda, but if I recall correctly it is the brake slave cylinder itself. It usually jams but releases itself if you back up a couple of turns of the wheel. It needs a very slight coating on the brake backing plate at that point of lithium grease.

 

[Jeff Scoville]

I know this is not what anyone wants to hear, but i'll say it anyhow.
We, as Alpine owners, and protectors of the Marque, need to quit being cheap-asses.
Ecspecieally when it comes to brakes.
Not only will you be the dog chasing it's tail until you finally, piece by piece, replace everthing in the system, you will be taking your life and the lives of others into your own hands until it's done properly.
Not to say that if I were to have ANY part fail in the brake system that I would replace ALL the parts, but I am saying when a system looks and acts as questionable as yours, I would replace/rebuild EVERY part of it.
Other than the front calipers, you can put an entire NEW system on your car for less than $400.00. Lines, hoses, master, rear slaves, rebuild the calipers, clean up the rest of the stuff, put it back together with new fluid.
All done easily in 1 weekend and you shouldn't have to think about them for another 20 years.

Clive, this post is not directed at you soley, it is to remind everyone, including myself to stop "beating" ourselves. Fix it once, fix it right, and don't look back.

God knows we'd all spend $400 or $500 in a heartbeat for something shiney, but i gaurantee nothing shines when major systems on a car fail, well, nothing that is but thoses flashing lights on top of the meat wagon.

And there you have it, my rant of the week!

 

[V6 JOSE]

I know this is not what anyone wants to hear, but i'll say it anyhow.
We, as Alpine owners, and protectors of the Marque, need to quit being cheap-asses.
Ecspecieally when it comes to brakes.
Not only will you be the dog chasing it's tail until you finally, piece by piece, replace everthing in the system, you will be taking your life and the lives of others into your own hands until it's done properly.
Not to say that if I were to have ANY part fail in the brake system that I would replace ALL the parts, but I am saying when a system looks and acts as questionable as yours, I would replace/rebuild EVERY part of it.
Other than the front calipers, you can put an entire NEW system on your car for less than $400.00. Lines, hoses, master, rear slaves, rebuild the calipers, clean up the rest of the stuff, put it back together with new fluid.
All done easily in 1 weekend and you shouldn't have to think about them for another 20 years.

Clive, this post is not directed at you soley, it is to remind everyone, including myself to stop "beating" ourselves. Fix it once, fix it right, and don't look back.

God knows we'd all spend $400 or $500 in a heartbeat for something shiney, but i gaurantee nothing shines when major systems on a car fail, well, nothing that is but thoses flashing lights on top of the meat wagon.

And there you have it, my rant of the week!

Jeff,

I totally agree with you. I would never rebuild brake master or slave cylinders, after I had to rebuild all the ones I had just rebuilt, when I was younger. I had to replace the brand new brake shoes I'd just put on, and it was false economy, not to mention the danger I exposed myself to, if a master cylinder failed just when I needed it most. Brake slave cylinders are too cheap, to risk rebuilding an old one. Master cylinders are even more important, so trying to save a few bucks, to me is short sighted.

Jose

 

[skywords]

Jose this is one thing we disagree on. I have always rebuilt all the cylinders in my cars and airplanes. I find it interesting and an economical way to keep them on the road. I have never had a failure caused by a rebuild. The cost of new master cylinders is high and is justified only when wear or corrosion limits have been exceeded.

I realize that some do not have the skill for such rebuilds but people that do are throwing money away by discarding good bores when a cheap set of seals are all it takes to bring them back.

These cylinders are dirt simple with only a few parts within them and assembly is very easy. The trick is inspection.

My 2 cents

 

[ozzie alpine]

Whenever I rebuild master cylinders I have them sleeved with stainless steel. I find that by the time a cylinder needs rebuilding, there is usually enough internal corrosion/pitting to warrant either replacing it or sleeving it, even if its hard to see. Sleeving might be expensive, but it lasts. Particularly good for cars that might be laid-up for several months of the year I'd say (although nothing beats taking it for a spin at least once a month to keep all the seals in order)
It doesn't take much corrosion to damage that nice new seal....

Just to reinforce what Nickodell recommends, make sure the slave cylinder is able to move on the backplate to allow the shoes to centre/release properly.

 

[Nickodell]

Personally, I might take chances with a few things but the two that I draw the line on are steering and brakes, in that order. Without steering your world is likely to come to a sudden and unplanned end, and since we are in ragtops if we can't keep it straight we are likely to find the top of our head where our collar button was.

Brakes come next. You may be able to steer, but if your foot goes to the floor as you approach a major road with traffic doing 65, it's likely that you're going to get hurt.

When Matilda hit 30 years of age, in 1997, she had all her brake lines, solid and flexible, underneath, where external corrosion is likely, replaced. I plan to replace the flexible ones this year again, whether they need it or not. In addition, I drain, flush and replace the fluid every 5 years, or any time it looks off-color when I bleed a cupful out. It does deteriorate and pick up moisture. A leaking slave cylinder will soon let itself be known by pulling to the opposite side when you brake, but a sudden loss of fluid will often only manifest itself by an unplanned excursion into the scenery.

I'm still working on my device to sound a buzzer and flash a warning light on the dash in the event of low fluid level. Until then, I check the reservoir before and after each trip.

Anyone who takes chances with, or tries to economise on, brakes or steering is an accident looking for somewhere to happen.

End of sermon.

 

[skywords]

Personally, I might take chances with a few things but the two that I draw the line on are steering and brakes, in that order. Without steering your world is likely to come to a sudden and unplanned end, and since we are in ragtops if we can't keep it straight we are likely to find the top of our head where our collar button was.

Brakes come next. You may be able to steer, but if your foot goes to the floor as you approach a major road with traffic doing 65, it's likely that you're going to get hurt.

When Matilda hit 30 years of age, in 1997, she had all her brake lines, solid and flexible, underneath, where external corrosion is likely, replaced. I plan to replace the flexible ones this year again, whether they need it or not. In addition, I drain, flush and replace the fluid every 5 years, or any time it looks off-color when I bleed a cupful out. It does deteriorate and pick up moisture. A leaking slave cylinder will soon let itself be known by pulling to the opposite side when you brake, but a sudden loss of fluid will often only manifest itself by an unplanned excursion into the scenery.

I'm still working on my device to sound a buzzer and flash a warning light on the dash in the event of low fluid level. Until then, I check the reservoir before and after each trip.

Anyone who takes chances with, or tries to economise on, brakes or steering is an accident looking for somewhere to happen.

End of sermon.

Nick
I don't take chances when rebuilding a hydraulic component on an airplane. Nor do I on a Sunbeam. Actuators are resealed in the field on a regular basis. I have worked in component overhaul shops that rework cylinders that hundreds of lives are depending on. The sunbeam MC is no different in complexity than say a MC on a mid size twin. A brake failure while stopping on a short runway will put you into the trees. The price of new aircraft components demands that they be resealed. You cound not afford a ticket if they tossed an acuator every time it dripped or acted up.

I have my steering box from the quad 4 car completely disassembled all the balls and shafts and columns apart. Am I being reckless wanting to know the statis of it's condition? The inner column on these cars is really quite dainty and could do with a look see every few decades. Mine has some surface corrosion that will be dealt with.

Dang it I'll modify the way I want

I guess I'm just not afriad of my work.

 

[skywords]

Whenever I rebuild master cylinders I have them sleeved with stainless steel. I find that by the time a cylinder needs rebuilding, there is usually enough internal corrosion/pitting to warrant either replacing it or sleeving it, even if its hard to see. Sleeving might be expensive, but it lasts. Particularly good for cars that might be laid-up for several months of the year I'd say (although nothing beats taking it for a spin at least once a month to keep all the seals in order)
It doesn't take much corrosion to damage that nice new seal....

Just to reinforce what Nickodell recommends, make sure the slave cylinder is able to move on the backplate to allow the shoes to centre/release properly.

I was delighted to see a brass sleeve in my clutch MC on the Series II. Thanks Bill A.
Made the rebuild smooth

 

[V6 JOSE]

Nick
I don't take chances when rebuilding a hydraulic component on an airplane. Nor do I on a Sunbeam. Actuators are resealed in the field on a regular basis. I have worked in component overhaul shops that rework cylinders that hundreds of lives are depending on. The sunbeam MC is no different in complexity than say a MC on a mid size twin. A brake failure while stopping on a short runway will put you into the trees. The price of new aircraft components demands that they be resealed. You cound not afford a ticket if they tossed an acuator every time it dripped or acted up.

I have my steering box from the quad 4 car completely disassembled all the balls and shafts and columns apart. Am I being reckless wanting to know the statis of it's condition? The inner column on these cars is really quite dainty and could do with a look see every few decades. Mine has some surface corrosion that will be dealt with.

Dang it I'll modify the way I want

I guess I'm just not afriad of my work.

Rick,

You are a professional with years of experience. Most of us are not, so we should not try to rebuild a part that is so important. The parts for our Alpines are so cheap, that saving $10 isn't worth the risk. I can understand trying to rebuild a part that might cost $200, and the repair kit might cost $40, but at that, I wouldn't do it myself, I'd pay a professional to do it right.

Jose