alpine IV A

[Tom H]

I had a SIV, with round door and hood corners. I do not recall that the metal top cover was upholstered, nor was the little seat area upholstered. So I think the nice treatment on this one with white piped upholstery is not original , but quite nice. Also I do not recognize the big red indicator (?) under the clock. Also my SIV had chrome knobs on the ends of the heater/defroster control levers and the heater blower switch was activated by pulling on one of the chrome knobs. I see this car has the SV style black plastic knobs, but don't know if that was stock on late SIVs (SIV A)

The passenger floor looks quite flat and about the right depth, so I think the foot panel is in place

Tom

 

[65beam]

series 4

my series 4 has the same heater controls as the series 5. heater fan switch ( two speed ) on far left of dash. same as series 5. all of this is original to my car.

 

[alpine_64]

Just to clarify the IVA designation is much like the Tiger IA .. it was a car with ammended specifications of the Series IV and the MKI Tiger, not an offical factory designation.. just one we use now to help clarify things. I had alwasy thought the IVa with the sync trans started at the square cornered cars.. this was until robin corrected me in regards to his round cornered car... though would be interesting ro see how many other round corenered cars fall into the IVa chassis numbers.

As for the cross over.

I though late SIV's (IVA) had:
*square corner bonnet and doors with round boot
*all sync transmisson
*the plastic knob heater controls

I have never seen a SIV or for that matter the IVA bodided Tigers with fresh air vents or the soft boot covers.

When the first SV's and MKIA Tigers were made they had cross over bodies (in that they still had round corner boots) but now had the soft boot cover and the fresh air vents.

 

[65beam]

alpine 4

michael,

my series 4 is # 1969 and built the week of christmas,1964. all round corner,late heater controls,two speed heater fan, black pebble grain loose flap seats, full syncro trans, small booster. car now has a 1725 that was one of my crate motors, close ratio full syncro trans,full series 5 wiring with alternator and is now negative ground. original engine and trans along with wiring is stored away. i had paeco in alabama rebuild the original motor to their stage three specs back in 1970 . that's when i bought the close ratio trans . still have some of the abarth exhaust somewhere. i know what was original to this car.fourth generation of the family drives it more than anyone now.

 

[John W]

I sort of like that console. Looks like an original shift knob and overdrive switch. I like the color also. I think I'd buy this car if it ran okay and the price were right. If S U N B E A M were removed from below the bonnett, someone went to a lot of trouble to do that. Maybe this car was originally intended for Portugal, and the console is factory.

 

[John Boggis]

Most series 1Va cars are visually the same as a 1V. The square corners on the hood and doors did not come in until late in the 1Va production.

The easy way to check is by the serial number.... Series 1Va cars start at B94100001 and finished at B94104470.

 

[Tom H]

John, not to be TOO nit picky, but according to the info on the "Production Changes" table in the Technical Data section of this site, the first SIVa would be B94100000. Most of this info is there in that table. The first 7937 SIVs were numbered with 8 digits starting at B9400000. The next 4471 SIV's are considered SIVas and are the ones with 9 digits starting with B94100000. The primary distinction for SIVa seems to be that the all syncro began at that point. Round corners on doors and hoods, Velcro use on hood, and aluminum wheel trim all were introduced on these late (SIVa) models before switchover to SV. Ths is what I understand from those tables. I had not noticed previously that the later SIVs had an extra digit in the number.

Tom

 

[John Boggis]

my series 4 has a build date of christmas week of 1964.

Your car is a Series 1Va.. with synchromesh on all forward gears It would still have had the series 1V chrome rim embelishers, five (unless you had the optional wire wheels) including the spare in the trunk. the later Aluminium wheel trims (only four supplied) came in on B94102173.(early Jan 1965 )

The first series 1Va models came out of the factory week ending 7th August 1964. and 4470 were produced before the introdution of the series V

 

[John Boggis]

John, not to be TOO nit picky, but according to the info on the "Production Changes" table in the Technical Data section of this site, the first SIVa would be B94100000. Most of this info is there in that table. The first 7937 SIVs were numbered with 8 digits starting at B9400000. The next 4471 SIV's are considered SIVas and are the ones with 9 digits starting with B94100000. The primary distinction for SIVa seems to be that the all syncro began at that point. Round corners on doors and hoods, Velcro use on hood, and aluminum wheel trim all were introduced on these late (SIVa) models before switchover to SV. Ths is what I understand from those tables. I had not noticed previously that the later SIVs had an extra digit in the number.

Tom

Hi Tom,
The Museum of British road Transport states that all Alpine series cars start at 1 So series I would start B9000001...series II B9100001 so on. You are correct in that all syncro cars started with the S1Va.

 

[Tom H]

John, Thanks. Makes sense. Slight error in the tables in the Tech Data section.

Tom

 

[65beam]

alpine 4

john,
i'm well aware of what i have .it's a SERIES 4. when dad went to buy the car,it was a SERIES 4. nobody at the dealers here in the states called them a series 4A. the dealer literature never mentioned series 4A. they were all series 4. i do understand why you use the A DESIGNATION. i know a lot about series 4 cars. i first drove this car at the ripe old age of 16. i'm now 60. that's right ! it's been in the family for decades. so ,unlike you ,a person that bought a car a few years ago and never fails to tell people what you have, i know what i have since everything that was on it is still on the shelves in one of my garages that house my spare parts. we have many photos of me and other family members with this car. it still has all five original dated coded wheels that came on it along with the original hub caps and trim rings. plus this car came out of george byers in columbus with no trim ring on the spare wheel. you also mentioned that my series 5 has the wrong radio in it. well guess what! that radio came in the series 4. even says SUNBEAM on the radio face. dealer option . in fact there is an nos radio kit for sale on e bay now that is just like mine. this car was the start of sunbeams for me. it has been driven hard, put away wet and has been all over the states with me behind the wheel. tonight it's asleep in the same garage that has been it's home since it's young days in the mid 60's.thank gosh it can't talk! i guess if someone has questions about series 4A's sold here in the states, maybe i can help.

 

[alpine_64]

in fact there is an nos radio kit for sale on e bay now that is just like mine.

I was looking at that radio kit.. i have seen those installed on late SV's and quite a few MKII Tigers..

If you look at the packaging that the NOS one has it actually states its for Arrow and alpine.. whicg would lead me to believe at least in the case of that particular one its meant for the fastback series of cars.. now we all know that they cross over with late SV's and MKII's..

You say you had the same one in your SIV.. would be interesting to see what date or ID info is on the radio..

 

[John Boggis]

john,
i'm well aware of what i have .it's a SERIES 4. when dad went to buy the car,it was a SERIES 4. nobody at the dealers here in the states called them a series 4A. the dealer literature never mentioned series 4A. they were all series 4. i do understand why you use the A DESIGNATION. i know a lot about series 4 cars. i first drove this car at the ripe old age of 16. i'm now 60. that's right ! it's been in the family for decades. so ,unlike you ,a person that bought a car a few years ago and never fails to tell people what you have, i know what i have since everything that was on it is still on the shelves in one of my garages that house my spare parts. we have many photos of me and other family members with this car. it still has all five original dated coded wheels that came on it along with the original hub caps and trim rings. plus this car came out of george byers in columbus with no trim ring on the spare wheel. you also mentioned that my series 5 has the wrong radio in it. well guess what! that radio came in the series 4. even says SUNBEAM on the radio face. dealer option . in fact there is an nos radio kit for sale on e bay now that is just like mine. this car was the start of sunbeams for me. it has been driven hard, put away wet and has been all over the states with me behind the wheel. tonight it's asleep in the same garage that has been it's home since it's young days in the mid 60's.thank gosh it can't talk! i guess if someone has questions about series 4A's sold here in the states, maybe i can help.

Bob...this part of the forum is called Factory original and is based on facts not what a dealer told your dad or because you remember your dads car being delivered without a wheel trim on the spare.

You are right I may have only owned my car a few years but it is a virtually factory spec car which has not been messed with and still has 99% of It's original parts.
As you say I do tell people what I have but this is because hopefully this will give them the information to restore there series 1V Alpine correctly.

As far as the radio is concerned on your series V. I mentioned that it did not have a speaker box under it... not that the radio was incorrect.

The series 1Va is well documented in the archives of the British Motor Museum and is common knowledge in the UK if not in the US

 

[wipeout]

lol....and you guys call the modifiers the "dark siders" ....lmao...

 

[65beam]

alpine 4

if i remember correctly,this started out with a potential owner asking if the car looked to be a good buy. so many comments were made that were telling him that the floor was flat ,this wasn't right,nobody explained what square corners or round corners were,etc,etc. the potential owner is probably confused so bad now that he may not want to buy the car or any other beams since he knows less now than he did before. all he wanted to know was if it was worth the asking price. he probably thinks he is looking at a converted MG. even if he buys it,thanks to all derogatory remarks given,he will always have an uneasy feeling anytime he takes it out since all he was hearing was what was wrong. he heard nothing about whether it was a good car. it even has a factory hardtop. who really cares if it's 100% correct. that's the reason that here in the states ,the clubs that do concourse judging allow a certain number of changes to be made to aid in reliability and drivability. i hope i was able to help him out in making his decision. i think he should have asked in a different section of this forum. maybe if he had posted in the modified he would have had better comments. reasonable questions would have gotten reasonable answers. wonder if he bought the car????

 

[Tom H]

Boys, Boys. Let's not get into a flame war here. Obviously you both are interested in the same purpose here - to help others.

John, I think you would be a bit more correct to admit that what Bob has is what the "Factory" called a Series IV. After all, as you stated, this section is about what the FACTORY specified. So we can say that Bob has a Series IV, of late production, that modern Alpine buffs now refer to as Series IVa.

And Bob, how neat that you have had this Alpine in the family since new. And that you still have just about every stock item either installed or on a shelf. I have been on this forum (and its predecessors) for 6 years and was not previously aware of this history on your car.

John, how have you established that a Factory spec Alpine included 5 trim rings until the switchover to aluminum? It is not possible that the export models went to 4 sooner? Or is it not possible that the factory left off one before they shipped it? It seems to me that an open mind is a good search tool to find out what WAS coming out of the FACTORY 45 years ago. I just checked my SV brochures and both the full color and green one indicate, in the specs section, 4 hub caps and trim rings. I do not have a SIV brochure, but it would be interesting to know what it said.

Thanks to both of you for all your information.

Tom

 

[65beam]

alpine 4

tom,
i have everything but the original tires . they didn't last long when i started driving it. another thing to consider is where my car came from. byers was known to even switch complete interiors to make what a buyer wanted. who knows whether they pulled the fifth trim ring to sell to someone. in those days anything was possible.

michael,
there also was another radio kit that was used on the fastbacks. it had a plastic surround that hid the entire radio body and blended in real well. there were differences in the mountings on the fastbacks versus the series alpines. i have an original still in the box for the fastbacks. bought it from doug at tiger auto many years ago. actually there were two styles of the surround.the fastback had a speaker in the top of the crashpad.i think it was a matter of what the dealer wanted to install in those days since no one cared if it was factory correct. it just worked and it was the 60's. it was not one of the normal times in history. think about it ; would it be easy to sell a car with no air and no windows today. one of the big problems today is that the guys that had these cars in those times are starting to suffer from oldtimers disease and don't remember things like some of the little details that amount to mountains today. time to try to remember what the wife told me to do. did anyone hear what she said?

 

[John Boggis]

I was looking at that radio kit.. i have seen those installed on late SV's and quite a few MKII Tigers..

If you look at the packaging that the NOS one has it actually states its for Arrow and alpine.. whicg would lead me to believe at least in the case of that particular one its meant for the fastback series of cars.. now we all know that they cross over with late SV's and MKII's..

You say you had the same one in your SIV.. would be interesting to see what date or ID info is on the radio..

Michael...Bendix made three models for Sunbeam. The one on ebay is a model 8BSU produced in 1968 or It's a 9BSU produced in 1969 both these look identical with the black knobs. Bendix also made one other radio for Sunbeam the 7SUX produced in 1967. So it can be assumed that these radios were only available when the Series V was in production.

 

[Famous Grouse]

Alpine Iva

Hello again,
fist of all i´d like to thank all the sunbeam owners that gave their opinion here at my thread.
As it happens in most of the foruns, for a guy that mostly understands of Vespas, the several opinions i read gave me good hints but also left me a little confused.
Never the less, with some more "intel" i´ll be able to figure a way to do a good deal.
this next week i´ll be traveling (250km) to the owners garage to make the last check on the car and make my mind.
He tells me that everything is original, but as we can see by the pictures the dash has somethings diferent from original as it happens with the tunnel of the gearbox. The motor and the "2nd radiator" are making me doubt of what he told me but there´s nothing like check all the numbers and see if they match...
to give me an extra headache, the guy told me that ould sell the IVA or a V for the same price and i only need to choose (i have no picture of the Series V). It looked at the time i was there in similar shape of the IVA i posted here).
What would be the correct choice if both are similar?? i´ll wait for the opinions.

when i get there i´ll check:
1. number of engine to mach the number of production of the car - B94....
2. check the usual stuff when you buy a car (oil in the water, water in the oil)...
3. check the pressure of oil at idle (25-30 psi) and at 2500 rpm (40 psi)
4. check for rust and check under the carpet.
5. at the floor of the passengers, i´ll see if it had some kind of work and if it is still "original"
6. take a ride with it and see if it makes noides from the differential, if gears go OK and if the motor doesn´t go above the 85ºc.
7. check for oil leaks taht seem to big (i think all the cars and motorcycles that were built in England always leak).

photos of details of the cars (dash, motor...) are welcome!!!

thanks a lot


regards

FG

 

[John Boggis]

Boys, Boys. Let's not get into a flame war here. Obviously you both are interested in the same purpose here - to help others.

John, I think you would be a bit more correct to admit that what Bob has is what the "Factory" called a Series IV. After all, as you stated, this section is about what the FACTORY specified. So we can say that Bob has a Series IV, of late production, that modern Alpine buffs now refer to as Series IVa.

And Bob, how neat that you have had this Alpine in the family since new. And that you still have just about every stock item either installed or on a shelf. I have been on this forum (and its predecessors) for 6 years and was not previously aware of this history on your car.

John, how have you established that a Factory spec Alpine included 5 trim rings until the switchover to aluminum? It is not possible that the export models went to 4 sooner? Or is it not possible that the factory left off one before they shipped it? It seems to me that an open mind is a good search tool to find out what WAS coming out of the FACTORY 45 years ago. I just checked my SV brochures and both the full color and green one indicate, in the specs section, 4 hub caps and trim rings. I do not have a SIV brochure, but it would be interesting to know what it said.

Thanks to both of you for all your information.

Tom

Tom,obviously Bob has a series 1V ... all i said was by the build date of his car it was a 1Va.

I am not disputing that Bobs car came with no rim embellisher on the spare...but that does not make it factory correct. What you have to do on a point of factory correctness is that if you can't prove it then is not correct.

Your query about about the five trim rings is a good example. I have researched the Rootes archive centre where it has the information on the changes of spec. Also if you go on into the feature articles on the top of the forum page then click on articles archive you will find the excellent artical on wheels and tires by Alpine Ian... it will explain everything.