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Alpine engine

K

kbebout

Until Saturday January 6, 2007, I had never even heard of a Sunbeam Alpine. However, while going to look at a small lathe, I found one behind the shop where the lathe was. It had been sitting there for 21 years (1986 tags on it). I bought it for $400 to fix up for my wife (she has always wanted a VW Carmagia??sp). I got it home today and it appears to have a 4 cylinder Ford engine in it. Appears to be the same engine as the Ford Pinto. Is this the stock engine? I found where the Tiger had a Ford 260 or 264 or something like that but the alpine shows some sort of engine with twin carbs.

Can anyone give me advice on this?
 
sunbeam74

sunbeam74

Silver Level Sponsor
Sunbeam

Technically, the engine in the car should be a Rootes engine. However, many times I have seen a Ford or similar 4 cylinder engine substitued.

If you can provide a Serial number I am sure we can help you identify the engine that should be in it.. or you might want to consider a Ford V-6 transplant if the engine in it currently doesn't work.

If you want more details on the car you can read this article posted on the main website of the club:
http://www.saoca.org/technical/Misc_mag_papers/Todays Motor sport/Todays Motor Sport April 1962.pdf

Steve
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Well, as Steve hinted, if it looks like a Pinto engine, it probably is. The next question is, "Which Pinto engine?" Ford put three different four cylinder engines in the Pinto. The "Kent", an OHV valve engine, also used in the Fiesta. The "German SOHC" and the "Lima". These two are difficult for the casual observer to differentiate. If the distributor is right behind the fan, it is the "German", sometimes referred to as the "Pinto SOHC" engine. If it is located about mid block, it is the "Lima". Even though they are very, very similar, they have zero parts interchangeability, other than starters and clutch parts.

I have put a "German" Pinto into my Alpine. In order to go back to the Alpine engine will be quite a bit of work.

Do you know anything about the transmission?
Bill
 
K

kbebout

Bill Blue said:
Well, as Steve hinted, if it looks like a Pinto engine, it probably is. The next question is, "Which Pinto engine?" Ford put three different four cylinder engines in the Pinto. The "Kent", an OHV valve engine, also used in the Fiesta. The "German SOHC" and the "Lima". These two are difficult for the casual observer to differentiate. If the distributor is right behind the fan, it is the "German", sometimes referred to as the "Pinto SOHC" engine. If it is located about mid block, it is the "Lima". Even though they are very, very similar, they have zero parts interchangeability, other than starters and clutch parts.

I have put a "German" Pinto into my Alpine. In order to go back to the Alpine engine will be quite a bit of work.

Do you know anything about the transmission?
Bill
Click to expand...

I just went out and checked the distributor location. It is right behind the fan. I do not know anything about the transmission. I do not intend to try to "restore" this car. It will be more of a renovation than a restoration (if that makes any sence). If the "German" engine is a good engine, I will probably only make performance modifications. I did hook up a battery to the car before buying it to make sure the engine would turn and was not locked up.

Any advice on the transmission?

Thanks for the info on the site to research the VIN. I had already found it and this Alpine is a series 5 manufactured the week of Sept 17-21, 1967. I can not locate the other data plates as the car seems to have 2-3 paint jobs.

Was the price ($400) ok? The body has one small 4" dent that can be popped out with a rubber hammer. The floor boards are rusted through and will have to be replaced. And of course the convertible top was completely rotted away. Believe it or not after 21 years of sitting in the dirt 3 of the 4 tires held air long enough to load the car on a car hauler and unload it 5 miles away.

Thanks again for your help

Kevin
 
V

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Kevin,

If the rest of the body is sound, $400 is a good price. The little 2 liter German engine is a good engine, but parts for them are getting scarce and expensive. I personally prefer it to the Lima 2.3 liter four. If you decide not to use the engine in it, I would suggest going with the Cologne 2.8 liter V6, rather than using the 2.3 liter Lima four cylinder.

If the transmission behind the engine you have, has external shifting rods, The engine and transmission, they most likely came from a Capri. That transmission it problematical, because it isn't as strong as some of the later five speed transmissions, and the shifting is not very good, because all the shifting mechanism is probably worn out. You could use a later transmission with the internal rail shifting, and getting the parts to adapt it to your engine should be pretty easy to get.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Alpines. You will have a lot of fun working on it, along with some frustrations too, but you will enjoy driving it when you get it done.

Jose
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Kevin, tough to comment on the value of the Alpine. These cars tend to rust out from underneath and are difficult to repair as they do not have a separate body and frame. Poke around the underside of the car in the area of the rocker panels. Also the front inner fender panel just to the rear of the tires. Also check inside the trunk, in the front corners. These will give you a good clue as to the soundness of the body. BTW, where are you located? That has a lot to do with the soundness of the body.

The German Pinto engine is a good engine, very sound and can take tons of abuse if you are so inclined. The weak link is the head. Valve train (cam bearings and cam followers) is prone to early wear and the valve ports look like they were designed to limit power. But they were the engine used in the Formula 2000 cars for about 30 years, so all is not doom and gloom.

The outlook for transmissions is not good. Ford never bothered to import a 5 speed tranny for this engine. The available four speeds are adequate, not much more. The worst part is lack of the overdrive 5th gear, especially as the Alpines had 3.89 and 4.10 rears. The Ford T9, by all I've ever heard a fine transmission, is widely available for this engine, but you'll have to go "over there" to get one. Ford Ranger transmissions almost fit, the latest examples seem to be okay. The pre 1988 examples have bad ratios. If you decide to use a Ranger, you will find that only four of the 6 bolts line up and you will need special pins to align the transmission to the block. That is no big deal and should not be a part of your decission. If you decide to go that way, I'll make them for you. But the clutch, starter, etc. are all compatible.

Ooops! Just realized the distributor location of the Kent engine is the same as the German Pinto. Is this engine an over head cam with a belt cam drive? If not, it is a Kent engine and little of the above applies.
 
K

kbebout

This engine is the overhead cam with the belt drive. I will look further into the body where you indicated. I have to wet vac all the leaves out of it which causes me worry about the soundness of these areas.

Thanks for the advice so far,

Kevin

oh yeah, i'm located in Memphis, Tn
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Kevin, I forgot about the availability of the T-10 trans, but it offers its own problems. The four cylinder models have not good ratios and the other offerings are just differrent enough that they are not directly interchangeable.

After all the above about the engine and transmission, please consider this advise very strongly:

If it is fairly sound, get the damn thing running and let your daughter drive it. Otherwise, you can get so deep into the woods the car won't emerge until your granddaughter is driving.

Ask me how I know.
Bill
 
K

kbebout

What do you think?

Here are a few pictures of the "new" Alpine. Can anyone tell me anything about the transmission from these pictures? I dont see any bad rust problems underneath the car.
 
V

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
kbebout,

The transmission appears to be the one from the Capri. I can't see the shift rods clearly, but the rest of it sure looks like it.

The rest of the car looks good, so it appears like you scored. It reminds me of my first Alpine, with the faded red paint. When you get it running, I'm sure that you will enjoy it for a long time.

Jose
 
S

SDuncan

Donation Time
Was the T-9 transmission not the one that came on the Merkur XR4Ti? If so, there are some of those around as a lot of XR guys upgrade to a T5 if the horsepower gets up there.

It looks like you have a bit of work ahead of you. Good luck.
 
R

RootesRacer

Donation Time
kbebout said:
Here are a few pictures of the "new" Alpine. Can anyone tell me anything about the transmission from these pictures? I dont see any bad rust problems underneath the car.
Click to expand...

The transmission and likely the engine are from a Pinto, not a capri.

The driver side of the trans would have the shifter rods low on the case, as well as a plate on the side where the shifter linkage comes through.

Without the side plate on the drivers side, the trans would be a top loading single rail, integral shifter transmission, as found on Pintos and 4 cyl mustang IIs.

Mated to a 2.0 ford means it would have to come from a pinto, or a cortina, since the mustang 2 was never equipped with a 2.0.
 
husky drvr

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
I have to agree that it is NOT a Capri trans. What makes that even more likely it is a Pinto engine/trans is the front sump on the engine. The Capri 2000 had a rear sump.


Capri 2000 external shift trans and Capri 2000 rear sump engine ;)
 
K

kbebout

So....is that good, bad, or doesnt really matter? I'm completely ignorant about this car.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Kevin, truth be told, all this is little more than counting flies on a horse turd. It is what it is, an old car with a 33+ year old engine and transmission. The condition of the sample is much more important than what the sample is.

I think it is fair to state at this time the transmission (regardless of which one you have) is likely to be the weak link and you'd probably be advised to start thinking in terms of a replacement. But right now, get the body in shape, fire up the engine and see what you have.

While the T9 was used in the Merkur, the Merkur's all had the 2.3 engine. At the least the ones in the states. So it will have the same mounting problems as the Ranger transmission. In the meantime, if you find one, probably should try to get it as they are a good transmission. The problem I see with using a T9 that someone is dumping in favor of a T5 is that it probably has had the crap run out of it.

Bill
 
husky drvr

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
kbebout said:
So....is that good, bad, or doesnt really matter? I'm completely ignorant about this car.
Click to expand...


Exactly :) ;)

You have an Alpine. :cool:

It only matters in what you want for your Alpine and are willing to work to attain. It is no longer original, needs work, is not assembled to what some board members think to be an optimal level of usefulness, and the engine and trans might be as hard to find parts for as the O/E units.

If you can get it running and safe to drive, it should deliver plenty of fun just the way it sits now.

Some things you might may want to consider in your planning:

> how is the cable clutch interfaced with a car that had a hydraulic clutch as O/E

> the brake servo booster is missing

> is the rear end O/E or has it been replaced with something else

> it appears to have Capri wheels mounted [ Capri wheels work fine on the front but due to the shape of the Alpine's O/E rear brake drum (dished drum against straight wheel center and spokes gives no support to wheel hub ) they should not be used on the rear - might be okay with a small spacer ]
 
K

kbebout

I am still confused...is the motor and transmission that are in this car original from the factory? I understand it really doesnt matter in the big picture, but I am curious.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Kevin, your engine and transmission are Pinto. They were never factory installed by Rootes into an Alpine. Strickly home-brew. The installation is pretty straight forward. A problem that some installers never addressed was steering arm/motor mount interferance. The result was the car would not turn sharply to the right. but that is easy enough to check.

I have put a turbo'd version into an Alpine and have a bunch of parts for the engine. Before you go nutzo buying stuff for it, get in touch with me. That goes double if you want to hop up the engine. Its easy to dump a bunch of money into them and end up about where you started.

Bill
 
V_Mad

V_Mad

Donation Time
kbebout said:
I am still confused...is the motor and transmission that are in this car original from the factory? I understand it really doesnt matter in the big picture, but I am curious.
Click to expand...

The original engines and transmission for your Alpine (and all the other series Rootes Alpines) were Rootes 4-cylinder engines, made by Rootes Group UK. These engines were fitted to a range of Rootes cars such as the Hillman, Humber, Singer, Sunbeam and Commer vehicles. The last engines used were 1725cc 5-bearing engines, which were used in the all the Rootes Light Car range, and these went on to be used in the next generation of Sunbeam cars, the fastback Rapier and Alpines, some of which were of the sporting Holbay Specification.
 
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