John Boggis
Donation Time
Steve, I take your point, but you would think out of all the good Alpine restorations about a few would be kept factory original.
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all original series 5
- Thread starter 65beam
- Start date
Steve, I take your point, but you would think out of all the good Alpine restorations about a few would be kept factory original.
sunbeam74
Silver Level Sponsor
I think I may have been splitting hairs... when I was saying original I meant un-restored (not necessarily low mileage but a true survivor. Though I am beginning to hate the word "survivor" since almost anything is getting that label these days).
But to answer your question; there are some nice restored Alpines that try and stay true to the factory type originality in the US. Of course some parts aren't availble - specifically the matts - and that can be a real let down.
Either case takes a lot of work to keep it that way!
Steve
But to answer your question; there are some nice restored Alpines that try and stay true to the factory type originality in the US. Of course some parts aren't availble - specifically the matts - and that can be a real let down.
Either case takes a lot of work to keep it that way!
Steve
sunbeam74
Silver Level Sponsor
I thought I might mention there's a company in the Alfa Romeo world called "Re-Originals" which really prides itself on going to the original suppliers or providing the best recreations possible.
In fact they have reproductions of the Duetto's floor and trunk mats.
http://reoriginals.com/rubber_5.aspx
Fantastic stuff. (though lately I have seen a few aftermarket items in their inventory... ouch)
And yes, I have asked Matt the owner of Re-Originals if they'd consider talking to their supplier. I will let you know what they say.
Steve
In fact they have reproductions of the Duetto's floor and trunk mats.
http://reoriginals.com/rubber_5.aspx
Fantastic stuff. (though lately I have seen a few aftermarket items in their inventory... ouch)
And yes, I have asked Matt the owner of Re-Originals if they'd consider talking to their supplier. I will let you know what they say.
Steve
todd reid
Gold Level Sponsor
John,
You are failing to look at this from the American view point. Why would any sane person buy a "factory original" Lucas part, when you could walk into any NAPA (in the 1960's & 70's) and buy an American made part that offered 5 times the durability for 1/2 the cost? I have witnessed people taking still functioning Lucas parts off their cars and throwing them away as a precautionay measure! That is one reason why there are so few "factory correct" cars in America - it made no economic sense to keep them that way.
You also have to remember that Sunbeams (like MG's and Triumphs) were more or less "entry level " sportscars. Many owners were of modest means, and very few original owners, much less second or third owners, were concerned with long term collectibility.
Our view point from 40 years later is quite different than the way it was "back in the day".
You are failing to look at this from the American view point. Why would any sane person buy a "factory original" Lucas part, when you could walk into any NAPA (in the 1960's & 70's) and buy an American made part that offered 5 times the durability for 1/2 the cost? I have witnessed people taking still functioning Lucas parts off their cars and throwing them away as a precautionay measure! That is one reason why there are so few "factory correct" cars in America - it made no economic sense to keep them that way.
You also have to remember that Sunbeams (like MG's and Triumphs) were more or less "entry level " sportscars. Many owners were of modest means, and very few original owners, much less second or third owners, were concerned with long term collectibility.
Our view point from 40 years later is quite different than the way it was "back in the day".
jmthehermit
Donation Time
John, here's another take on the American view point. I've got the paper work for repairs on this car up until the early eighties. After that time ownership was passed to two different owners until I bought it out of a junk yard!!! These cars were considered expendable if the owner thought it cost too much to get the back on the road. Then they were sold as restoration projects. Here is an original 33,713 mile Alpine that I bought just for the hard top! Granted the sun visors are ANCO aftermarket, but the rest is just as it was when delivered to the original owner.
65beam
Donation Time
series 5
todd,
i have to agree with you on the american way. way back in the late sixties i bought many parts from either byers or trainor's in columbus before i figured out that there were many other parts stores in the columbus area that had better items at better prices than the two dealers i mentioned. after all these cars were just the normal car being sold by dealers just as hondas and toyotas are being sold today. i also have many parts in the garage that came from dealer stocks that myself and another person bought and they are original rootes/chrysler parts and are not ORIGINAL factory parts according to others out there. the quality of some parts leaves a lot to be desired. but they are sunbeam replacement parts. i still have a coil made by standard ignition on the series 4 that has to be close to 35 years old or older. it probably came from either the local napa or the other part store here in town.
todd,
i have to agree with you on the american way. way back in the late sixties i bought many parts from either byers or trainor's in columbus before i figured out that there were many other parts stores in the columbus area that had better items at better prices than the two dealers i mentioned. after all these cars were just the normal car being sold by dealers just as hondas and toyotas are being sold today. i also have many parts in the garage that came from dealer stocks that myself and another person bought and they are original rootes/chrysler parts and are not ORIGINAL factory parts according to others out there. the quality of some parts leaves a lot to be desired. but they are sunbeam replacement parts. i still have a coil made by standard ignition on the series 4 that has to be close to 35 years old or older. it probably came from either the local napa or the other part store here in town.
jmthehermit
Donation Time
Bob, my point was that up to a certain time my Alpine was serviced quite well. But when it started to require more expenditure to keep it reliable, the car became a throw away. If I had the storage space, I'd still have both of the cars I had in high school. Unfortunately for the lack of a large garage in my house, I had to sell my 1963 Cadillac convertible. It was tough to do after 36 years of ownership. Luckily the Tiger fit! Jeff
John Boggis
Donation Time
I agree that at the time the Alpine was just an ordinary car and that most owners will have used alternative parts for routine maintenance, after all, maintaining the "originality" of the car for an enthusiast 40 years in the future would not have been on their mind at the time. But what I am trying to discover is if anyone in the States owns that "time warp" car or has ever attempted a factory restoration, i.e. re-built a car to the spec that it was when it rolled of the production line the in the UK - it would be good to just find even one, perhaps the Series V of Daves (BuckAlpine3) - I hope someone will take up the offer to photograph it
65beam
Donation Time
original car
john,
there are many cars here in the states that have had great restorations done to them. but keep in mind what i have told you before. the sunbeam clubs here in the states that do judge the cars allow a certain number of changes to be made for reliability,etc. there are six catagories that are judged. these are : function,chassis,engine compartment,trunk,interior and exterior. function means all lights,wipers,heater fan and horns function as intended. the console lock,door locks and trunk lock must all work. the windows must roll up and down properly. there is a possible 22 points for this catagory. the chassis has a possible 23 points. this includes general appearance and judges overall impression. 5 points in this section are for adherence to originality. points can be deducted for non original finish to the front cross member,nonstock exhaust, sway bar etc. there is a possible 35 points for the engine compartment. again general appearance,component finish (including engine),compartment finish, hoses,grommets,wiring,horns,etc. adherence to originality is 8 points with missing vin and sal plates, non original carbs,washer bottle,booster and different color paint than the exterior. the trunk is again general appearance and finish,spare tire,jack,tools and owners manual. originality is 6 points with points deducted for non dunlop spare and missing tool kit and proper jack and handle clips. interior has a total of 35 points with originality being 10 points. points can be deducted for nonstock seats,steering wheel, instruments,shifter,visors and non sunbeam radio and speakers.exterior is a total of 55 points with quality of paint, body surface and panel match,glass,etc.originality is 10 points with points deducted for different color than paint code,missing chrome/trim,glass and tires. with these guidlines there is room to make changes to greatly improve the overall fit and finish of the car and thus deviate from factory original and still have a top notch car. now maybe you will understand a little better the thinking of many folks here in the states that are able to do a very high quality restoration in stock and rare rootes and why changes are made from factory original. such is the reason for the weber on my wife's car. so we lose one point, big deal. but the reliability is much better! at the last united my fastback totaled 190 points of a possible 192 in rare rootes. i consider that pretty good! will we ever find a car such as yours here in the states? i doubt it. these cars were driven and maintained but at some point most owners traded them for another vehicle when they became a liability and maintanance cost and reliability became an issue. thus they faded away.
john,
there are many cars here in the states that have had great restorations done to them. but keep in mind what i have told you before. the sunbeam clubs here in the states that do judge the cars allow a certain number of changes to be made for reliability,etc. there are six catagories that are judged. these are : function,chassis,engine compartment,trunk,interior and exterior. function means all lights,wipers,heater fan and horns function as intended. the console lock,door locks and trunk lock must all work. the windows must roll up and down properly. there is a possible 22 points for this catagory. the chassis has a possible 23 points. this includes general appearance and judges overall impression. 5 points in this section are for adherence to originality. points can be deducted for non original finish to the front cross member,nonstock exhaust, sway bar etc. there is a possible 35 points for the engine compartment. again general appearance,component finish (including engine),compartment finish, hoses,grommets,wiring,horns,etc. adherence to originality is 8 points with missing vin and sal plates, non original carbs,washer bottle,booster and different color paint than the exterior. the trunk is again general appearance and finish,spare tire,jack,tools and owners manual. originality is 6 points with points deducted for non dunlop spare and missing tool kit and proper jack and handle clips. interior has a total of 35 points with originality being 10 points. points can be deducted for nonstock seats,steering wheel, instruments,shifter,visors and non sunbeam radio and speakers.exterior is a total of 55 points with quality of paint, body surface and panel match,glass,etc.originality is 10 points with points deducted for different color than paint code,missing chrome/trim,glass and tires. with these guidlines there is room to make changes to greatly improve the overall fit and finish of the car and thus deviate from factory original and still have a top notch car. now maybe you will understand a little better the thinking of many folks here in the states that are able to do a very high quality restoration in stock and rare rootes and why changes are made from factory original. such is the reason for the weber on my wife's car. so we lose one point, big deal. but the reliability is much better! at the last united my fastback totaled 190 points of a possible 192 in rare rootes. i consider that pretty good! will we ever find a car such as yours here in the states? i doubt it. these cars were driven and maintained but at some point most owners traded them for another vehicle when they became a liability and maintanance cost and reliability became an issue. thus they faded away.
John Boggis
Donation Time
Bob
thanks for the detailed reply but it is not the concours system that I am querying, I'm well aware that there are really great cars and high quality restos in the States. But remember this thread began with you saying "for what it's worth, i just heard that there is supposed to be an all original, 16000 mile series 5 at the te/ ae bash this weekend. it has been stored in climate controlled conditions all it's life. it was owned by a long time club member and it is now in the hands of a family member. i was told that it still looks factory fresh and could be called a time capsule."
What we discovered with Kims great photography was that it unfortunately did not merit this description, so all I am curious about is whether there is a car that has been completely bought back to its factory specification or a good original that can be used as a reference vehicle. You answer in your last sentence that you think probably not, which I find suprising given the number of Alpines that were shipped to the USA.
thanks for the detailed reply but it is not the concours system that I am querying, I'm well aware that there are really great cars and high quality restos in the States. But remember this thread began with you saying "for what it's worth, i just heard that there is supposed to be an all original, 16000 mile series 5 at the te/ ae bash this weekend. it has been stored in climate controlled conditions all it's life. it was owned by a long time club member and it is now in the hands of a family member. i was told that it still looks factory fresh and could be called a time capsule."
What we discovered with Kims great photography was that it unfortunately did not merit this description, so all I am curious about is whether there is a car that has been completely bought back to its factory specification or a good original that can be used as a reference vehicle. You answer in your last sentence that you think probably not, which I find suprising given the number of Alpines that were shipped to the USA.
"so all I am curious about is whether there is a car that has been completely bought back to its factory specification or a good original that can be used as a reference vehicle. "
The car you are looking for exists in Livonia, Michigan which is west of Detroit.
Its a Series IV Alpine with 22,000 original miles. Completely unrestored or modified other than the installation of every Rootes accessory listed in the factory brochure.
The car you are looking for exists in Livonia, Michigan which is west of Detroit.
Its a Series IV Alpine with 22,000 original miles. Completely unrestored or modified other than the installation of every Rootes accessory listed in the factory brochure.
John Boggis
Donation Time
Dude, can someone take a set of pictures of this car... on the same style as Kim did of the series V.
Shame It's a series IV as we are really looking for the other series Alpines but it would be interesting to make a comparison with my own Alpine. If someone takes a set of pic of the Michigan car i will take a matching set to see if the cars are different.
The time capsule SV was at the Invasion a few years ago. I've forgotten the owner's name, but he is on the site from time to time. IIRC, it was a blue SV from Maryland (or somewhere in that vicinity) with around 25,000 miles and the only thing that have ever been done to it was a fender repair. It had only one previous owner and had only recently been sold. It wasn't as beautiful as John's car, but it seemed to be exactly as it left the factory, with the addition of some light use wear and tear. I don't know if anyone ever took pictures of it, though.
fireboltgirl
Donation Time
Series IV and V pictures
Detailed photos of the Series IV in Livonia, Michigan would be very helpful to me since I am restoring a Series III. I'm in Maryland and will be happy to take pictures of the blue Series V if someone can get me the owner's contact information.
Kim
Series III
Tiger II
Detailed photos of the Series IV in Livonia, Michigan would be very helpful to me since I am restoring a Series III. I'm in Maryland and will be happy to take pictures of the blue Series V if someone can get me the owner's contact information.
Kim
Series III
Tiger II
65beam
Donation Time
original series 5
my question is what do you need to know on how the cars were built and assembled? there are many owners that have either had many cars including original cars or are original owners. we parted out a badly rusted series 5 about a year ago that was parked in 1970. it was complete down to the lucas bulbs, original furflex,etc. i kept all the original rubber parts that didn't tear up while being removed. there are also many of us that have restored several beams over the years ,maybe not to total original but we do know the basics. there are so many photos of the original cars in published books that it's really quite easy to see how the engine compartment was set up and the same goes for the interior and trunk. keep in mind that just because the car is low mileage ,that doesn't mean that parts weren't changed over the years. there also is a real nice low mileage series 5 in southern new jersey that the owners have driven to many meets over the years but doesn't go long distance since they built their V6 alpine several years ago. still original red, black interior and has the rubber mats.
my question is what do you need to know on how the cars were built and assembled? there are many owners that have either had many cars including original cars or are original owners. we parted out a badly rusted series 5 about a year ago that was parked in 1970. it was complete down to the lucas bulbs, original furflex,etc. i kept all the original rubber parts that didn't tear up while being removed. there are also many of us that have restored several beams over the years ,maybe not to total original but we do know the basics. there are so many photos of the original cars in published books that it's really quite easy to see how the engine compartment was set up and the same goes for the interior and trunk. keep in mind that just because the car is low mileage ,that doesn't mean that parts weren't changed over the years. there also is a real nice low mileage series 5 in southern new jersey that the owners have driven to many meets over the years but doesn't go long distance since they built their V6 alpine several years ago. still original red, black interior and has the rubber mats.