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200 hp 2.8?
- Thread starter NorCal
- Start date
One of the best sources I know re: 2.8 performance improvements is The Ranger Station: https://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/2_8L_Performance.shtml. One of our former members, Jim Ellis, applied many of the recommendations there to his 2.8 a number of years ago and the result was scary fast. In fact, Jim was confident he could break the engine's 1/4 mile record, but he never officially tried. I don't think he ever had it dyno'd, but have to imagine it made well over 200 hp. So, yes, I'd say it can be done. It was definitely streetable, especially by Jim's standards. More power than I would want on a regular basis, but that is me.
Jim documented his build as a blog on an earlier version of our site and Mike Hartman has a pdf of the blog on his site. http://mhartman.net/files/sunbeam/dark side archive text.pdf. Jim's blog starts on page 94. It is very long (171 pages!), and I haven't read it since Jim finished posting in 2005, but I suspect it will tell you everything you could ever want to know and more. There is a lot more on the V6 conversion on Mike's site (http://wp.mhartman.net/home/cars/sunbeam/alpine/info) and you could probably spend a couple of days (weeks?) reading though what is there.
Jim documented his build as a blog on an earlier version of our site and Mike Hartman has a pdf of the blog on his site. http://mhartman.net/files/sunbeam/dark side archive text.pdf. Jim's blog starts on page 94. It is very long (171 pages!), and I haven't read it since Jim finished posting in 2005, but I suspect it will tell you everything you could ever want to know and more. There is a lot more on the V6 conversion on Mike's site (http://wp.mhartman.net/home/cars/sunbeam/alpine/info) and you could probably spend a couple of days (weeks?) reading though what is there.
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What does it take to get 200 hp out of a 2.8. One of three things, 1. Nitrous 2. Super (or turbo) charging. 3. $10,000 and a miracle. Take your choice.
No one has posted a dyno printout showing 200 hp.
Streetable? Yes, if you are a street racer or Jim Ellis (wild driver). Generally speaking, no.
Bill
No one has posted a dyno printout showing 200 hp.
Streetable? Yes, if you are a street racer or Jim Ellis (wild driver). Generally speaking, no.
Bill
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
Probably need to define "Streetable"
True. Like I said, Jim's car had more power than I would want to drive on a regular basis. Was it 200hp? Who knows? All I know is it literally snapped my neck when Jim was driving and I was stiff for a couple of days afterwards. The only thing I can compare it to is Brian/Tigetr's car (sorry, I can't remember Brian's last name at the moment), which was dyno'd at 172 hp (http://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?threads/updated-my-website.17300/). I wrote the following after a ride in Brian's car: "This is without a doubt the fastest Alpine I have ever been in, save Jim Ellis' V6." So, my seat of the pants dyno says Jim's was somewhere north of 172. Did he make it to 200? We'll never know.
I have. It was impressive, but not in the same league as Jim's. Of course, I might have felt differently if Jim had been driving it and I was just a passenger. I never knew how fast my own car was until I went for a ride in it with Jim at the wheel/gas pedal.
While I do not know how much hp my car has, I can say it has been driven by several V6 owners, all of whom had "enhanced" engines. The typical reaction (about 90%) is "My V6 won't do that!". The rides/drives were definitely not of the wild nature, simply reactions to the power delivery of the engine as they drive. Its power delivery from off idle to 6000 is an eye opener. Paul A says it reminds him of a race prepared "D" class Triumph he once drove.
Bill
Bill
I have only driven two V6 Alpines. Bryan Gilbreath's RHD Alpine and Jim's. I don't think Bryan's was fully sorted when I drove it, but I would certainly agree that the Durapine was more powerful than Bryan's.
As for fast Alpines I have driven, I should also add Rocco/Mototron's S2000 conversion. The S2000 had north of 235hp and Rocco's car is very fast and very streetable. We had a blast driving it through the country roads around Harrisburg after the BASH a few years ago. But, Jim's car was in a different league than all of them, at least with Jim at the wheel. The only Sunbeam I have been in with a seat of pants feel comparable to that is Michael King's Tiger. I don't know what the HP is on Michael's car, but the engine is far from stock.
As for fast Alpines I have driven, I should also add Rocco/Mototron's S2000 conversion. The S2000 had north of 235hp and Rocco's car is very fast and very streetable. We had a blast driving it through the country roads around Harrisburg after the BASH a few years ago. But, Jim's car was in a different league than all of them, at least with Jim at the wheel. The only Sunbeam I have been in with a seat of pants feel comparable to that is Michael King's Tiger. I don't know what the HP is on Michael's car, but the engine is far from stock.
Barry
Diamond Level Sponsor
The first issue is "streetable." To me, that means no more than 91 octane pump gas, max HP at no more than 6,000 RPM and a 750 RPM idle with at least 18" of vacuum (the minimum to operate a brake booster).
HP is all about airflow and the Ford 2.8 V6 is very limited on the intake side with the available carburetor intake manifolds. IMO, 200 NET crankshaft HP (about 160 - 170 NET rear wheel HP) from a naturally aspirated / carbureted streetable Ford 2.8 V6 is unlikely. To paraphrase the movie Jerry Maquire, show me the numbers from a reputable engine or chassis dyno.
IMO, 200+ NET crankshaft HP from a Ford 2.8 V6 using boost or nitrous should be easy, but either one will be expensive if you expect the engine to last very long. Nitrous is either or or off and is not useful for anything except WOT at mid / high RPM. A turbo setup can be very streetable and 10 PSI of boost should provide at least a 50% power gain. A very "tame" 150 HP engine should make 225 - 250 HP with 10 PSI of boost. Engine longevity with boost requires inter-cooling which means complex intake plumbing and reducing ignition advance when under boost, but it can be (has been) done. IMO, a streetable turbo setup should include EFI with the capability to control both the AFR and ignition timing. YMMV.
As usual, the answer is "Yes, but ..."
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Exactly! Brings to mind Bill Ashby's JDM Nissan Powered Alpine. The V6 is an out dated lump.
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alpine_64
Donation Time
I would suspect a crank 200hp streetable v6 is possible with the bigger valves, flowed heads, the pruett mods and Jose's cam with appropriate headers and ignition and intake system.
Im told from this forum that the 2.8 heads were better than the 2.6 essex v6 heads. There are guys here in Au with +200hp in their street v6 70s capris. There was a company in Australia making v6 conversions with the 2.6 essex in the 70s.. I drove a modified one of those with over 200hp that was very fast... And obviously had handling and weight advantages over a tiger.
As for inline 4s... Yes.. 90s/Modern inline 4s offer very good output to cu in and physical size.. Guys here with N/A Nissan and Toyota have done very quick reliable cars and there are a couple of turbo Nissan alpines too.
For me the nicest thing about the V6 apart from the conversion knowldge, parts and community is that the V6 in the alpine LOOKS period and factory ... There is something about nice metal rocker covers each side... Headers and the caeb and intake not to mention the "peirod" exhaust sound that makes me like the v6 conversion.
Also.. People may recall jose had a turbo v6 he drove daily.. I forget the power and 1/4 times but it was fast.
Im told from this forum that the 2.8 heads were better than the 2.6 essex v6 heads. There are guys here in Au with +200hp in their street v6 70s capris. There was a company in Australia making v6 conversions with the 2.6 essex in the 70s.. I drove a modified one of those with over 200hp that was very fast... And obviously had handling and weight advantages over a tiger.
As for inline 4s... Yes.. 90s/Modern inline 4s offer very good output to cu in and physical size.. Guys here with N/A Nissan and Toyota have done very quick reliable cars and there are a couple of turbo Nissan alpines too.
For me the nicest thing about the V6 apart from the conversion knowldge, parts and community is that the V6 in the alpine LOOKS period and factory ... There is something about nice metal rocker covers each side... Headers and the caeb and intake not to mention the "peirod" exhaust sound that makes me like the v6 conversion.
Also.. People may recall jose had a turbo v6 he drove daily.. I forget the power and 1/4 times but it was fast.
alpine_64
Donation Time
I remember that quick run in 2010 we did round the block that day... I recall you mentioning feeling the back squirm as we left the side street and round the kink.. Which i no longer noticed as i had become used to that.
The car then had 267hp at the wheels with full exhaust.
Later on it got dialled in a bit better with adjustments to jetting and timing and pulled 282 at the rear wheels.
With the later tune and the freeflow exhaust bolted on it managed a 12.27 1/4 on street tyres.... I miss driving the tiger regularly....
Ive still got a better flowing manifold to fit at some point....
Strange, we keep hearing about "easy" 200 hp 2.8's but never see them.
My advise to anyone that is thinking about going the 2.8 route. Do it, but forget about hp numbers. Build the engine, oversize valves, intake, exhaust, etc. Then drive the piss out of it. It will be a fun ride and look like a million bucks when you raise the hood. Why else would you want an Alpine?
Bill
My advise to anyone that is thinking about going the 2.8 route. Do it, but forget about hp numbers. Build the engine, oversize valves, intake, exhaust, etc. Then drive the piss out of it. It will be a fun ride and look like a million bucks when you raise the hood. Why else would you want an Alpine?
Bill
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
Can't say it any better, except maybe what Mr Bill added: "My advice......forget about hp numbers. Build the engine, oversize valves, intake, exhaust, etc. Then drive the piss out of it. It will be a fun ride and look like a million bucks when you raise the hood. Why else would you want an Alpine?
Bill"