1725 oil pressure relief valve

[SIVAllan]

No its not normal at all, there should only be a few thousanths of an inch, a few mm's would be .080 thou, this would be very bad and the smoking gun as it were.


Cant picture what you mean. Sounds bod though, might need to replace the cam, sprocket and thrust plate to insure proper gap.
EDIT:
Oops saw your picture, those spacers dont belong there, perhaps DPO used bolts that were too long and they are acting as washers.
Before you go much further determine if the sprocket just wasnt fully home on the cam (cam bolt too long), else your sloppyness is due to wear on the cam/thrust plate.sprocket and you will need to replace all 3.



Chains are cheap, you should always replace them.
If your intention is to button the motor up and never take it apart, I'd use the one piece chain, that is one that doesnt have a master link.
If you get in there often to pull out the cam ETC, the masterlink is an easy way to get the chain off without pulling the crank sprocket each time.



Hepolite.
C size, sounds like a bra.
It would likely be "C" grade, which if the motors never been rebuilt, there should be stampings at the top of the block also showing "C" grade, which means they were getting sloppy machining that day (probably a Monday).

I'll check those bolts against a parts manual. I think I'd be happier if able to replace all suspect components. I have a line on a camshaft.

What causes such endplay? Worn cam bearings?

I don't plan on opening the engine often, or at all, as it will be a driver. In the future I'll find an engine to have more fun with.

Readings I have so far are:

Rods:
#1 - TN1 1990538 - 16298 - B6 - JGSB
#2 - same
#3 - same except A5 not B6
#4 - same except B7 not B6

Rod bearing:
EJ then G and D in separate boxes
GS1481SA
STD
T/B

Thanks!

 

[RootesRacer]

What causes such endplay? Worn cam bearings?

I already answered this one:

Before you go much further determine if the sprocket just wasnt fully home on the cam (cam bolt too long), else your sloppyness is due to wear on the cam/thrust plate.sprocket and you will need to replace all 3.


Cam bearings do not effect the end play.

 

[SIVAllan]

Thanks again.

I have a class Thursday evenings, so unfortunately I have to go away for a while.

After wiping off the grease, hairline or faint cracks can be seen in each end on one side just between the bolt holes and the rest of the piece.. On the other side, more cracks almost at one end, and they may go deep. Hard to say without a better loop.

I guess that will have to be replaced along with the camshaft. Might as well plan on the sprocket too.

First step in the a.m. will be to verify the bolt at the end of the cam...

Thanks again!

 

[Green67Alpine]

Allen, You might want to get the block checked out, and "boiled out" also, it seems your going to be putting a lot of time, effort, and $ into the engine maybe you should look into having it "magna fluxed" what ever that is. I know Jim E had it done to Alpine Bob's block that he rebuilt, at least you'll know then if the block has any defects. Plus boiling it out clears all the water passages and crud that builds up in the low flow areas. Just a thought, I'm sure some of the other guys can/will give better details and or ideas after all you've got it this far apart)).

Tom j

 

[RootesRooter]

You mentioned that only two lifters came out easily. How much effort to remove the rest?

Just wondering: If the cam was flopping back and forth, would that have messed up the oil pump gears?

 

[SIVAllan]

You mentioned that only two lifters came out easily. How much effort to remove the rest?

Just wondering: If the cam was flopping back and forth, would that have messed up the oil pump gears?

I haven't been able to remove the remaining lifters. The lip at the top of their cylinders resists the amount of pull from finger pressure. Not sure how to get them out unless I can find a barbecue tong-like device, or push them out the bottom once the cam is out.

The WSM says to pull the cam out gently. It won't pull out by hand; will see if I can rent a cam puller somewhere. Regular gear puller won't work.

I have much of a ruined 1725 engine in the basement, and removed its cam bolt, and compared it to the one in the damaged SIV 1725 engine. They appear to be identical.

I looked at the oil pump gears and they look Ok. But when the oil pressure problem surfaced a while ago I ordered a new oil pump, which arrived and will be used. I don't want to use anything that was directly in harm's way if possible (and within a limited budget).

Cam sprocket looks Ok too, but I don't trust it.

I plan to replace the cam, cam bolt, cam sprocket, oil pump and timing chain. Oh yes, the cam thrust plate too.

Tom suggested magnaflux, which makes sense to find out if the block has any issues. Will have to find a shop that does that.

I guess the next step is to remove the freeze plugs, then "roto-rooter" the passageways, then have the block hot tanked and new plugs installed, and the bore accurately measured.

This could take a while. Good thing the engine was dragged indoors.

I don't see any piston grade mark on the engine block so far.

If they mean anything important, block numbers are:

Side: 1980989
20-12-65 (on an attached plate)
1724 1
H
Rear:
4A
30 2004
Other side:
2

The ruined engine may be a better block, I dunno, the pistons are rusted to the cylinders and it would need boring or sleeves. It's a Nov 67 Alpine block, so it's newer anyway, better or not I do not know.

 

[SIVAllan]

Tom,

It is totally apart, except for cam removal (and lifters).

Getting the block checked for integrity makes good sense, gotta find a reputable shop in metro Atlanta.

Am starting to read material on the Vizzard mod, will consider that, but it sounds expensive. Also need to find out about the fix for upper oiling issues. So far can't find that thread but it is very important.

 

[Tom H]

Allan, Does the camshaft rotate? I'd be careful about using a puller. It should come out with hand pull. Maybe this is what froze the engine. Look closely at each bearing area to see if you can see something wedged in. And you really need to push the lifters up away from the cam before you pull it out.

Tom H

 

[RootesRooter]

Is the camshaft actually broken in two? Without the oil pump in place, it should slide out easily, guiding it past the cam bearings. Or, did the lifters drop down and block the cam from coming out after an inch or so?

Everything that's happened to your engine sounds like either not enough oil and/or way too much heat. A recipe for toast.

 

[Bill Blue]

Allan, many guys have done the Vizzard mod themselves and are pretty happy with the results. I would imagine you could do the job with a Dremel tool and about 30 dollars worth of carbine cutters (burrs) that would still be as good as new. If you don't care to do the job, contact Jim E, he has done several and is now in the business.

Bill

 

[SIVAllan]

All,

I got the lifters out, don't ask me how, then wrapped the end of the cam in many layers of cloth, used a Y bar, and a gentle tap with a rubber hammer, then it came out easily.

It is not broken in two, but it has a couple of other areas with a chunk missing, like the one pictured. I wrapped it in oilcloth, but unless such a nightmare can be salvaged it is destined for use as an arts and crafts lamp post, or maybe for home defense.

The lifter cylinders have a lip on them, making extraction a little difficult. Does that lip need to be ground away? New lifters should go back in without much problem, but is there an issue of wear on the lifter cylinders? I suspect that oversize lifters are difficult to locate.

Freeze plugs and the rear cam plug are ordered, so I'll pry out the old ones and clean out the passageways, and move this along.

Found a nearby machine shop to hot tank the block, apply the new plugs, and magnaflux, for not too much coin.

The block does not have the "Alpine Diamond" on it that was referenced in a post by the Sunbeam Restoration firm. Is that of any significance?

I think the head needs a review by a pro, whether it gets a Vizzard mod or not. I'll contact Jim. I might could do it successfully, but at this stage I don't want to take any chances.

With a little luck, make that a lot of luck, and close attention, the Air-Pine maybe might make it to the next Invasion, and beyond...

For now I have a seat from the parts car in the basement shop, and a short recording of the engine when it ran .

Thank you.

Allan

 

[RootesRooter]

Has anyone out there ever encountered a lip, or ridge, at the top of the lifter cylinders that made extraction really difficult?

How do your lifter cylinders and lifter outer faces look? Any scuffing?

Ditto the cam rotating (non-lobe) surfaces and bearings.

 

[husky drvr]

Allan,

Keep in mind that you are going to need new cam bearings as well.

 

[Jim E]

I would be very surprised if the block does not need bored, very very surprised.

 

[SIVAllan]

Here are some more fotos of damage. The trail of carnage continues.

The camshaft has a 2nd broken spot, in the center.

The associated lifter has a missing piece at the top.

The associated lifter cylinder has a chunk broken off the bottom, and is wallowed out at the bottom.

That lifter cylinder has marks at the bottom, couldn't get a pic, but they feel smooth to the finger.

I don't see any other lifter cylinder issues, getting afraid to look.

The center cam bearing is badly scoured.

Just looking at the cylinders, I don't see any damage, will try and post some pictures later.

Is this block no good?

If so...anyone got a 1725 block? The parts car block may be Ok, but it would require boring or sleeves as the pistons are melded to the cylinders.

If a block is bored - that means new pistons, right? Yikes.

If a block needs sleeves - is that something a machine shop does? I've never dealt with sleeving a block, only heard of it distantly.

Allan

 

[SIVAllan]

No gouges in the cylinders.

 

[husky drvr]

Allan,

I think you are at the point where you need to seriously evaluate your goals, expectations and budget for the airpine. I would say that you are in the unenviable position to need to figure out if you can repair the current damage as well as fix any previously existing wear that was not dealt with by whomever last assembled this engine. I am thinking that if both of your engines are 1725's with alloy heads, then you stand a good chance of having most of the parts to put one engine together BUT NOT BY JUST PUTTING PIECES TOGETHER.

From your description and your pictures, you apparently have in your hands one of the best examples for what happens when someone is not willing to pay attention to the details and tolerances when repairing an engine.

One of the removed pistons is missing the top ring. I wonder if a PO left it off, or if it is above the valves in pieces.

That ring is not likely to just disappear. If it had been installed to start with it would have destroyed the piston before its many pieces could find a way out of the cylinder. Your engine seems to have been the victim of an unscrupulous mechanic or machine shop whose only goal was get it together and out the door as cheap as possible. If you are thinking that your block has been bored to .040 by a ruler measurement, then did you measure all the cylinders? It would not be a surprise if you were to find that only one cylinder has been bored.

I will recommend that you contact Jan ( jumpinjan ) offline to discuss what you have and what might be possible with your parts. He is the SAOCA's authority on the repair and rebuilding of these engines.

 

[RootesRooter]

Yikes! What a mess! Is there anyone out there who doesn't think this engine is toast?

Even if the block were usuable/rebuildable, it would have been a good idea to buy replacement pistons, so I don't think you're any worse off having to buy a set for a 1725 replacement block. Who knows? You might find a long block in good shape.

 

[V6 JOSE]

Allan,

Now is the best time to just go with a V6. Of course, this comment will get some negative responses, but to replace the complete engine, (Which is what it requires), would set you back about the same as a V6 conversion would.

The engine looks like something went through it, and to rebuild it would get you a marginal engine, no matter what you did to it. If you want to keep it stock, I would suggest getting a different engine and start all over again.

Jose

 

[RootesRacer]

1) I think your cam bearing was improperly installed, I ruined one one using a normal shop universal cam bearing installer (damage looks the same). I notice a chunk out of one of your cams journals, so also possible that that chunk of iron dug into the bearing.

2) The lifter with a "pip" or notch on the top, Ive seen that many times on new lifters, I think its a manufacturing defect, perhaps where during machining, the part got dropped, and a chunk got broken off, anyhow I bought a set of crappy lifters once from VB and half of them looked just like it.

3) Missing ring, well I think whats been already said is true on that, the ring was never installed. When a ring breaks and exits the pistons, really bad stuff happens to the engine and the head and piston will show it as will other cyls after the bits and pieces propagate through the motor through the intake.

4) Breakout of the lifter bore area. I have no idea how it got that way, the lifter doesnt dwell that high in its bore, so even though its broken there, I dont think it will effect the lifter function. I would take a dremel tool and carefully remove sharp edges inside the bore and not worry out it.

So, thus far I dont see any show stoppers on getting this motor back up. Perhaps the original owner/builder was an idiot and just through it together, who knows.

Perhaps you dont need a full on rebuild, if the bores look good, you can save a lot of machining by freshing up a lightly worn (but very unlucky engine).

I'd measure the bores, look into the bore taper and if its not too bad, I'd get a new set of pistons and rings. Get a new set of lifters and a reground cam. Check the valve springs installed height and seating pressure/rate. Check the condition of the valves and guides, R&R as needed. Measure and evaluate the crank rod and main journals, turn crank if needed, order appropriate bearings.
Get new cam bearings and have them installed by a professional (inspect bearing oil passage clocking and condition for damage). Buy new cam thrust plate and cam locking washer. Purchase a new ca, sprocket and and have its "thrust" relief dimension verified for proper thrust clearance. Also its a good idea to buy new rod bolts, these are often reused too many times and can have fatigue cracks that lead to rod failure (resize your rod big ends if your replace the rod bolts).

Lastly the deck tends not to be too flat after so much time, plus a nice rough surface seems to work better in holding the head gasket in place. Ive had great luck flattening the deck by hand using a whet stone and oil with a circular motion. the whet stone needs to be a long and flat one so the stone stays flat on the deck. When you are done, the cleaned surface will have a nice sharp feel and will show small circular scratches.

HTH