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1725 Aluminum Oil Pan

BEpine

Platinum Level Sponsor
Building a 1725 engine just acquired a aluminum oil pan. fits perfect and wont need the bell housing support brackets. Not a racing engine, will this pan keep the oil too cold
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Is the cooler really necessary? Rootes dropped it when they switched to the aluminum oil pan.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
I stand corrected. But, my question is still valid: Is the cooler necessary with the aluminum pan?
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
I stand corrected. But, my question is still valid: Is the cooler necessary with the aluminum pan?


Jim,

Good question. I don't know the answer.

I'll counter your question with another though: Will the oil flow diverter keep the oil temp in an acceptable temp range if both units together aren't needed?

I know WSM 145 has a section about how the diverter functions, but I don't recall any data about when or how much it functions(viscosity and pressure differences).

I only recall one member who has installed an oil temp gauge to keep an eye on oil temps. This is an area where it appears there is no real data. It might be possible to find some engineering testing data in the Archives. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the change decision(cooler or pan) was made in the accounting dept. simply because it saved a couple of Pounds per car with less labor and fewer parts required for each build on the assembly line.

I'll guess the only real effect of using both pan and cooler together would be longer times for the engine to achieve full operating temp. I would probably think twice about using both units in frequent subfreezing temps, but southern California wouldn't bother me at all. It would also depend on if it's the OE Alpine cooler or a more efficient style cooler. My personal preference would be to use a "MGB style" oil cooler and not use the OE cooler and/or alloy pan.

YMMV
 

BEpine

Platinum Level Sponsor
My Alpine will be mostly a spring and summer driver in the California Bay Area and I was going to install the OE Sunbeam Alpine/Tiger oil cooler
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
My SV had an aluminum oil pan and the stock oil cooler when I bought it in 1978. The engine block was from a GT, so I assume that is where the pan came from. I kept the pan when I installed my new engine but later switched the oil cooler to a Ford water cooler because 1) I like the idea of not leaving a quart of dirty oil in the cooler and lines during a change and 2) I have never been one to leave well enough alone. I don't know if it cools as well as the stock set-up, but assume that my combination of aluminum pan and Ford cooler is sufficient.

I just searched the site to find the discussion I started when I was first planning on switching to the Ford cooler and there was also some good discussion on the AL pan and oil cooling: http://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?threads/ford-oil-cooler.16566/#post-111308
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
My SV had an aluminum oil pan and the stock oil cooler when I bought it in 1978. The engine block was from a GT, so I assume that is where the pan came from. I kept the pan when I installed my new engine but later switched the oil cooler to a Ford water cooler because 1) I like the idea of not leaving a quart of dirty oil in the cooler and lines during a change and 2) I have never been one to leave well enough alone. I don't know if it cools as well as the stock set-up, but assume that my combination of aluminum pan and Ford cooler is sufficient.

I just searched the site to find the discussion I started when I was first planning on switching to the Ford cooler and there was also some good discussion on the AL pan and oil cooling: http://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?threads/ford-oil-cooler.16566/#post-111308

Jim, let me ask you this: in your experience with 1725s, have you noticed that you you first put in new oil after an oil change and for a while your hot oil pressure at idle is at or very near the pressure regulation pressure (40 to 45 psi), and then as times goes on, say 500 miles, that same pressure drops down to 20 to 30 psi (or even lower)?

That's becuase the high oil temperatures are cooking the goodies in your oil and degrading it.
This is probably a case where synthetic oil would help a lot but the high oil temps are not good for the oil.

Anything you can do to drop the oil temp down as low at 200 degrees F will be good for the motor.
The oil to water cooler is ideal becuase it wont cool the oil below the coolant temp, which should still be high enough to vaporize the water condensation in your oil.

The alloy sump looks great and has some oil cooling ability, but NOT when the car is not moving. The standard and oil to water coolers will continue to cool the oil just as long as there is air running across your radiator.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
Thanks, Jarrid. I have not noticed this, but will try to check it before and after my next oil change. It is good to know that the oil to water cooler is a good option, regardless of the oil pan. Like I said, I put it in because of the dirty oil the stock system leaves behind, although if I am being completely honest with myself, I change the oil so frequently that it probably doesn't make much difference.

Just thinking about this a bit more, and thinking ahead to my S3 rebuild (a long time ahead, I am afraid): the oil cooler was added for SV, right? So, what should owners of earlier cars do?
 

BEpine

Platinum Level Sponsor
Thanks guys, lots of good information here. Sounds like a great plan to install the aluminum pan along with the oil cooler.
Just want to do things right and only once. I'm doing a complete restoration on a 63 S3, It's down to bare metal and getting the body work and painting done now. Installing the 1725 with a SV transmission with overdrive.
 
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RootesRacer

Donation Time
Thanks, Jarrid. I have not noticed this, but will try to check it before and after my next oil change. It is good to know that the oil to water cooler is a good option, regardless of the oil pan. Like I said, I put it in because of the dirty oil the stock system leaves behind, although if I am being completely honest with myself, I change the oil so frequently that it probably doesn't make much difference.

Just thinking about this a bit more, and thinking ahead to my S3 rebuild (a long time ahead, I am afraid): the oil cooler was added for SV, right? So, what should owners of earlier cars do?

I ran a 1600 prior to the 1725 and never had the issue with the old pressure drop on the 1600 (but did experience with the 1725).
Something changed between those engines. The obvious differences are 3 vs 5 mains and a different (larger) pump on the 1725. The 1725 also got a cast iron crankshaft with more stroke.

Rootes had issues with the 1725 and oil temp, its why they added the cooler. Prior to that, only racecars and the special tuning package got a cooler.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Jim oh and as to the question regarding what should owners of earlier cars do? Its related more to the engine type in the car and what you plan to do to the engine.
Any heavily modified engine (higher compression, hotter cam and higher revs) should get an oil cooler regardless of engine type.
1725s seem to need oil coolers even with stock config.
Stock 1500 and 1600 dont seem to need an oil cooler but it couldnt hurt.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
I recall tbis discussion from all those years ago...
Something i raised then which i still find inconsistent was the iron head 1725 didnt run oil coolers or in most cases an alloy sump.. Now maybe thats as they were or perceived to be less likely to be pushed as hard or maybe cam.timimg less aggressive so less revvy... But in theory the bottom end was subject to the same issues.

Id have to check with some rootes people.. But i dont think the alloy head 1725 vogues and hunters in AU and NZ ran coolers and i know they didnt use alloy sumps
 
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