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Engine rebuild

smashbeat

Silver Level Sponsor
It was supposed to be just a clean and refit, but you know how it goes...
This thread is for asking some suggestions about what to do while the engine is being disassembled.
So far, at first visual inspection I noticed some marks on the cam followers and one of the push Rods dry at the top cup.

I was thinking to replace the cam followers, rods, timing chain and tensioner, freeze plugs.

I still have to remove the pistons, camshaft and crankshaft and to remove the valves. At visual check, they appear to be original piston in good condition. So the cylinders, but I will have to measure.

As for the head, it is a must to replace the valve seats? I remember that I did that on an old engine for unleaded gas, but that was long time ago.

Any advice is appreciated!
Thanks
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
I asked a similar question on the forum almost 20 years ago and the answers I got took me down a very enjoyable (but possibly never-ending) path towards a much more drivable car. As with everything, you will get different answers from different people, but you might find the article I wrote for the club back in 2004 as a good place for you to start your investigation. http://sunbeamalpine.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/issue_11.pdf
 

smashbeat

Silver Level Sponsor
I asked a similar question on the forum almost 20 years ago and the answers I got took me down a very enjoyable (but possibly never-ending) path towards a much more drivable car. As with everything, you will get different answers from different people, but you might find the article I wrote for the club back in 2004 as a good place for you to start your investigation. http://sunbeamalpine.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/issue_11.pdf
Really nice article! It gave me some ideas, but, mostly, made me feel better. I'm not pursuing perfection, I just enjoy getting things done the right way, and learning through the process.

I'm reading a couple of books and sunbeam specialties catalogue as I progress.
The first book is the shop manual m
The other is the Osprey guide on classic car engine restoration.
I have a tiny bit of experience, and I did rebuild some engines in the past, spent most of my teenage years in a automotive shop.

Adding some pictures to this thread, or it might be boring!
 

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alpine_64

Donation Time
@smashbeat
Your head has already had some significant modification.... The combustion chamber has been quite significantly opened and reshaped around the spark plug side. You should cc the chambers and see what volume they are.
The wear bars are still visible in the photo so assume this was done for performance and flow not to mitigate high compression from heavy head skimming
 

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
Michael, what are the wear bars you mention? And why would that two cylinders on the left, especially the second one, show a different carbon pattern than the two right ones?
 

sunalp

Diamond Level Sponsor
These are fairly simple engines. They are well built and well engineered, so much that all components
wear at the same time. It's the reason that they are long lasting, but when it's time to rebuild everything
needs to be done. What you need to find is a good competent machine shop that has experience with
these types of engines. Everything needs to be measured. More than likely, you'll need to have the valves
and seats checked as well as the cylinder bores and crank journals. When a car comes in the shop for
restoration, especially if it's not running ( seized) I'll pull the motor and disassemble the whole thing
and then take that to my machinist. He measures everything and we fix anything that's out of spec.
Also, the block needs to be completely cleaned including the oil and coolant passages. It's amazing
just how much crud is found inside the block, and some of it is casting sand from the factory!

Be prepared to spend anywhere from $3-5 K for a good rebuild on an Alpine motor.
Cheers!
Steve
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Michael, what are the wear bars you mention? And why would that two cylinders on the left, especially the second one, show a different carbon pattern than the two right ones?
Mike the wear bars are the depth indicator for the head to know how much has been skimmed.
If a head is missing them you are going to want to open the chambers up to lower the CR.. At least in a street motor.

 

smashbeat

Silver Level Sponsor
Michael, thanks for pointing that out.
I can add that the car shows 75k, no rust, just paint oxidation and some body damage here and there. I feel like it was driven little, stored properly for most of its life and as you pointed out, at some point they did some work on the head just for fun.
I started cleaning the chamber. Piston 1 and 4 shows some marks. We will see how they measure.
The car was running fine for being old. After my tune up, a new weber, new water pump and thermostat, fuel pump rebuild and some sort of jackets flushing.
The plugs showed what looks like oil, so I suspect worn rings. I've found a lot of broken off metal pieces. Rings or chips from the distribution gears. I'll investigate after cleaning

Steve, this is not going to be a race car or even driven hard. I'm the one measuring (I'm a hobbyist machinist) and I will take care of that. What can't be done will go to the machine shop. Definitely I don't have the budget for a good rebuild, so I will do what I can. Just the peace of mind of know what's going on, replacing the obvious, get it to look nice and learning something are my goals.
 

AlsPine

Donation Time
Hi, You could pick up a new 1725 short block from Sunbeam Specialties and a set of standard pistons.
It has the cam bearings installed, so no need to buy a set.
The short block has low compression pistons, so will need to swap them out.
Looks like your engine is a 1600?,you'll need to pick up a 1725 cam, then send it to Delta Cam and have the KB grind put on it.
I'm sure someone on the forum can supply you with a used cam for a good price.
Delta can re finish your lifters and refurbish the rockers. You can also just get a new set of lifters from SS.
With the cost of refreshing your engine, Boring the engine for oversize pistons, cam rod and main bearings, then the machine shop cost,
it might cost a bit less to get the NOS SS 1725 short block.
Good luck on your project.
Regards
 

smashbeat

Silver Level Sponsor
This was in the oil pan.
Non magnetic. Maybe an old chain tensioner exploded.
What exactly the ss short block include?
Also pics of cyl 1 and 4 after cleaning 20210916_103609.jpg 20210916_102409.jpg 20210915_215226.jpg 20210915_215220.jpg
 

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sunalp

Diamond Level Sponsor
If you rebuild, you'll need a rebore as those are standard pistons. Given time and the age of those, not to
mention condition, you'll need new pistons ( oversize). I had trouble getting new pistons with the last engine
I did. Seems that King is no longer making them. Curt had to get me a set from England.

The short block may be the way to go. It needs a bit of work to get it ready, but you may be ahead of the game
with one.

I think you're on target with the chain tensioner., although they don't normally explode,
just disintegrate.
 

AlsPine

Donation Time
Here are the photos of my SS short block.
All you get is the block, installed crank, rods and low compression pistons. Cam bearings are also installed.
These came from France, 1980 vintage.
When it is pulled apart to replace the pistons, would have the machine shop pull the oil galley plugs in the block and give it a cleaning in their tank or cleaning machine. You can have them ball hone the boars, set the ring gaps on the new pistons. The rings are not installed on the new pistons, so no big deal in gaping the piston rings.
You can just have the shop reassemble it back to a short block.
While they are doing the work, it gives you time to clean and paint parts. You will need a 1725 oil pump abd pickupas the 1600 won't work.
When you get one, after the 1st cleaning, with the bottom cover off, use some 400 sandpaper and lap down the housing to obtain a 1 to two thousand gap between the bottom cover and the pump for good oil pressure.
You will also need to pick up a 1725 oil pan and dip stick.
Someone here on the forum should be able to supply you with the oil pan, pump and a dip stick.
What state are you in? Someone may be near to you that has the few parts that are particular to the 1725 engine.
 

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AlsPine

Donation Time
sunalp is right, the short block buildup is the way to go.
Might as well upgrade to the 1725 engine since you have everything out and apart.
You can use the 1600 flywheel and the larger clutch pressure plate and disk.
SS had the Timing chain and tensioner, also has a timing chain cover with an oil seal and a damper to fit to it.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
@smashbeat it would be good to post the cc of the head. Ive seen this chamber mod on a few race Alpines.. Be interesting to see the volume.. I nite it looks like its been done well. Have they done a multi angle grind on the valve seats? Any port work?
 

smashbeat

Silver Level Sponsor
Busy at work but tonight I took off piston 1.
Looks bad but it's is within specs for grade c and the cylinder is 2 thou off which is not bad and it's in good shape.

Budget is limited. I bought the car for cheap, has no rust but I already put 4k in it. Still have basically no interiors and the body is 5 different tones of red after a polish...
I definitely don't want to spend 3k for a short block conversion right now and I'm more into the historical restoration of the car and having fun/learning than performance. I would like to keep matching numbers.

So far I'm leaning towards reassembling the engine as is with the exception of minor replacements an head work.
At the end it was starting, running and idling real nice.
The reason for this tear down was clutch failure at the end.

I will post pictures of the head after cleaning.
Here is piston 1

20210916_183845.jpg 20210916_183849.jpg 20210916_183859.jpg 20210916_183911.jpg 20210916_183923.jpg
 

AlsPine

Donation Time
Hi, Piston skirts and bearings look good! If all the the bearings look as good, you can just polish the crank journals and install new bearings.
Although the piston skirts are nice, all the dings and pitting in the piston head could be an issue.
Personally, I would go for a set of 10 or 20 over pistons, If the bores are nice, you may be able to get away with a ball hone and standard set of pistons, but with C grade, no telling what the new set of standards would be at.
SS is getting his pistons from Australia, that is where my standard set came from.
You can give Rick at SS a call, and he will mail you a catalog, or go on line and you can view it there.
I like the paper catalog as I check off every part that I have bought from him over the years, one day i'll add up what I have spent, Ouch!
If you have to replace the pressure plate, SS only has the diaphragm style. which means that you would have to find a late taller (series V, You can find them on ebay) throw out bearing pedestal or make a spacer to raise yours up if your pressure plate is an original spring type.
The one upgrade that I would do is replace the transmission with a series V that has a first gear synchro.
There are a lot of them out there, someone on the forum might have one available.
One thing for sure, you have a fun winter project!
 

AlsPine

Donation Time
Photo of the difference between the 1600 and 1725 throw out bearing pedestal.
The tall one is a 1725 pedestal with the diaphragm style pressure plate.
The short one is a 1600 pedestal for the spring style pressure plate.
 

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smashbeat

Silver Level Sponsor
Hi, Piston skirts and bearings look good! If all the the bearings look as good, you can just polish the crank journals and install new bearings.
Although the piston skirts are nice, all the dings and pitting in the piston head could be an issue.
Personally, I would go for a set of 10 or 20 over pistons, If the bores are nice, you may be able to get away with a ball hone and standard set of pistons, but with C grade, no telling what the new set of standards would be at.
SS is getting his pistons from Australia, that is where my standard set came from.
You can give Rick at SS a call, and he will mail you a catalog, or go on line and you can view it there.
I like the paper catalog as I check off every part that I have bought from him over the years, one day i'll add up what I have spent, Ouch!
If you have to replace the pressure plate, SS only has the diaphragm style. which means that you would have to find a late taller (series V, You can find them on ebay) throw out bearing pedestal or make a spacer to raise yours up if your pressure plate is an original spring type.
The one upgrade that I would do is replace the transmission with a series V that has a first gear synchro.
There are a lot of them out there, someone on the forum might have one available.
One thing for sure, you have a fun winter project!
That's the plan. If cylinder 2 and 4measure well, quick hone, new std pistons and rings (top ring on number 4 was broken, probably because of the maks on the crown), measure, sand journeys and new bearings installed. The crankshaft measured just 1 thou off while in the block.
New cam followers, maybe a camshaft reground. New distribution chain.
For the head, I will decide after cleaning and inspection.
A budget rebuild. It will work just fine.

I had my clutch plate rebuilt and flywheel reground a couple of weeks ago and I have an all synchro series 4.
I do have the sunbeam specialties catalog, unfortunately
 

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AlsPine

Donation Time
Sounds good.
Delta cam did a 1 week turnaround on my cam.
The grind and return shipping was under 100 bucks.
From what I read, the KB grind perks up the performance a bit, without a lumpy idle.
Your a lot closer to Delta than I am, so you most likely get it back a bit faster than I did.
I just went for a new set of lifters from SS. I redressed the rocker faces myself, didn't need much.
Your diaphragm pressure plate and flywheel looks great.
If it is in your budget, go for the timing chain cover with the oil seal and damper.
The stock damper is 56 years old, and the rubber damper ring is most likely cracked. It can cause the outer ring with the timing marks to slip
or the ring can come off and cause a bit of damage if it fails.
There are places that can rebuild dampers, if you want to keep the original.
Forget the cork gasket on the side lifter cover, use RTV or other "Form a gasket sealer", cork just doesn't work well with the span between the bolts.
If the block goes to the machine shop, have them check the deck and have them skim it so you will have a good seal when you bolt up the head.
Over the years, I have use copper coat on head gaskets, and never had a leak.
Looks like you are on top of everything.
Give us updates and photos as you progress!
Regards
Al
 

smashbeat

Silver Level Sponsor
Thanks for all the appreciated info.
I'm at the freeze plug now. Just removed the 4 on the inlet side. I thought I flushed it well a few months ago, but there is still a lot of gunk!

Does the kit from ss have all 7? I mean the 4 on the side plus the 3 on the flywheel side. Classic sunbeam shows a picture with 9. My vision isn't the best but I can't find any more...
 
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