• Welcome to the new SAOCA website. Already a member? Simply click Log In/Sign Up up and to the right and use your same username and password from the old site. If you've forgotten your password, please send an email to membership@sunbeamalpine.org for assistance.

    If you're new here, click Log In/Sign Up and enter your information. We'll approve your account as quickly as possible, typically in about 24 hours. If it takes longer, you were probably caught in our spam/scam filter.

    Enjoy.

The Future of Gas Powered Cars for Hobbyists

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Where does the 500% increase in electrical capacity to switch to EV's come from? By that, I mean how is it calculated? Even assuming a 500% increase in electricity needed (not realistic figure, that's a lot of juice), it does not have to come from the grid. The electrical source can be very disperse, coming from solar fields and roof top solar.

Industrial metals production can be mostly done with electricity. Steel production, foundry operations and aluminum refining can be done with electricity. Aluminum production has electritly based for years.

Remember, the carbon hubbub is not about petroleum use, but carbon dioxide release. Huge difference.

Bill
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Jarrid, what do you think about some version of an Altra-capacitor as a future replacement for Batteries?


Yup, "Great" ideologies and practicalities rarely meet at a close/near by intersection.

I don't see the steps to provide the electric power needed..

And hold on to your wallet with what ever gets cooked up to replace gas taxes...
I am not familiar with "Altra" capacitors, I am familiar with some very high capacitance super capacitors but their efficiency is poor compared to LiPo batteries (relatively high internal resistance with requisite IR voltage drop).
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Where does the 500% increase in electrical capacity to switch to EV's come from? By that, I mean how is it calculated? Even assuming a 500% increase in electricity needed (not realistic figure, that's a lot of juice), it does not have to come from the grid. The electrical source can be very disperse, coming from solar fields and roof top solar.

Industrial metals production can be mostly done with electricity. Steel production, foundry operations and aluminum refining can be done with electricity. Aluminum production has electritly based for years.

Remember, the carbon hubbub is not about petroleum use, but carbon dioxide release. Huge difference.

Bill
The number was calculated by number of driven vehicles with an average miles per year, then with that and current electric vehicle miles per KwH, you can calculate the average yearly power needed bases on current driving norms and current battery/vehicle technology. Divide that by 12 and you get an average monthly power usage. The figure was 3 to 5 times higher than the average houses current power over a month.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Aha! Household electrical usage was 20% of the total load in 2019. Five time 20% = 100% increase total needed to cover the increase caused by electrical transportation.

Bill
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
Aha! Household electrical usage was 20% of the total load in 2019. Five time 20% = 100% increase total needed to cover the increase caused by electrical transportation. Bill

Bill,

Does your 20% include anything beyond SF detached housing? Seems to me there are a lot of people in apartments and other MF homes that will also require EV charging ports. I'd think most of their load is listed under the 80% side of your figures as commercial usage.

Now let's add in all commercial and OTR trucking requirements ( total changeover- remember). Is the meager 80% total infrastructure output really going to cover the needs?

My power company tells me that in my area, homes about the same size and age as mine, use about 1100 kWh per month. A Chevy Bolt has a 60kWh battery pack. The commute I had for work would have required a recharge at least every two days. Say twelve to fifteen recharges a month, averaging about 80% capacity, minimum.

60kWh*.8 capacity*14 recharges=672 kWh per month for recharging 672/1100 = 0.611% of monthly household usage for recharging.

The thing no one I've seen discuss is probably two thirds of all these EV's will be plugged in at about peak usage Time-of-Day(4:00 - 8:00 PM). There will be little leeway about that timing if an EV will need about eight hours to recharge. That's just one car - now consider a multi EV family's needs. The major problem of the grid is it has no storage capacity. All electricity required must be generated when needed, meaning the grid must be designed to handle PEAK load - not an average load. Otherwise brownouts and blackouts are inevitable.

Think I would want to check any elected official's connections to power/power infrastructure companies for proposing changing over to EV's BEFORE upgrading the power grid.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
The one thing that no one even looks at in this country is the infrastructure, or lack of one. We are light years away from what Europe
and Japan ( and probably China too) with their high speed trains. We keep looking at the small solutions to large
problems and think that they will "fix" everything.

We need to start looking at the really big picture if we're going to lead the world.
Im always astounded at the infrastructure in china. Admittedly they are able to do lots of new build as their previous starting point was so low... Also their driving rationale isnt just the efficiency but keeping people busy/ employed.... But the high speed rail systems, integration of transport hubs with national/local rail, local and international airport and local bus os trully amazing.

Their adaption of electric buses ( and not the tram style ones running on overhead cables) seems to be working fine for range and reliability seems to prove it works... The clean power generation of electicty will always be the ultimate measure... But thats improving too
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Don, I see no reason for the 20% to not include apartment housing. In this area each apartment and home has its meter. The only commercial billing would be for the office, outside lighting and maintenance work. High rise buildings in big cities - I have no idea. How commercial trucking figures into the mix, I have no idea. Not my data set, ask Rootes Racer. But figure that a Chevy Bolt would increase your usage 60%. Figure two cars per family, that 120%. That leaves 380% of your usage left for other transportation usages if we go by the 500% domestic usage increase.

Something you have not allowed for is power company control of user electricity usage. Just because a user has two cars on chargers does not mean both, hell maybe neither, car is drawing current.

Don't get the idea that I do not admit that wide adoption of EV's will cause problems. It is a disruptive technology, which means it will cause widespread problems. I'm just pointing out that the recharging problem is only 20% of what was it was claimed to be. You should be relieved!

Bill
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
Just throwing some numbers out for discussion.

According to the Fed's, the average car in the U.S. is driven about 13,500 miles / year and electric passenger vehicles use about 30 KwH / 100 miles. That works out to about 4,050 KwH annually for an average electric passenger vehicle that replaces an average gasoline passenger vehicle. For comparison, the annual electric power consumption for my house (heated with natural gas) is about 10,000 KwH. All-electric for my house would be about 15,000 KwH annually. Two electric passenger vehicles would require about 8,000 KwH / year of additional power grid capacity. For my wife and me, changing from gasoline passenger vehicles to electric passenger vehicles would mean an increase in annual electric power consumption of about 50 to 80 per cent.

It seems to me that a large scale move from gasoline powered passenger vehicles to electric powered passenger vehicles would require massive increases in power plant capacity and a massive upgrade of the electric distribution system. Not saying it will not happen, but it will be difficult and expensive.

I understand the possibility of charging electric vehicles during off-peak hours which could reduce the impact on the electric distribution system, but a 50 to 80 per cent increase in total electrical power consumption would require massive increases in generating capacity.
 
Last edited:

mikephillips

Donation Time
One thing that needs to occur, for those of us living where cold weather occurs, is a battery of some type capable of sitting out in the cold all day when at work without needing some sort of trickle charge, since how many businesses will want charging ports across a parking lot if they have perhaps 100s working there. Or would your salary be dinged for an average cost?? Could mean that the better answer ends up being some sort of fuel cell to power an onboard generator for actual movement.
Or will parking lots and central businesses disappear for all but where you can't do the work from home??

I don't know what the answer would be, just wondering since the real world and the development/testing worlds don't always agree.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Just throwing some numbers out for discussion.

According to the Fed's, the average car in the U.S. is driven about 13,500 miles / year and electric passenger vehicles use about 30 KwH / 100 miles. That works out to about 4,050 KwH annually for an average electric passenger vehicle that replaces an average gasoline passenger vehicle. For comparison, the annual electric power consumption for my house (heated with natural gas) is about 10,000 KwH. All-electric for my house would be about 15,000 KwH annually. Two electric passenger vehicles would require about 8,000 KwH / year of additional power grid capacity. For my wife and me, changing from gasoline passenger vehicles to electric passenger vehicles would mean an increase in annual electric power consumption of about 50 to 80 per cent.

It seems to me that a large scale move from gasoline powered passenger vehicles to electric powered passenger vehicles would require massive increases in power plant capacity and a massive upgrade of the electric distribution system. Not saying it will not happen, but it will be difficult and expensive.

I understand the possibility of charging electric vehicles during off-peak hours which could reduce the impact on the electric distribution system, but a 50 to 80 per cent increase in total electrical power consumption would require massive increases in generating capacity.

Also keep in mind there is no time basis for that 8000 KwH usage from your house. Your house may use that 10MwH power roughly at a constant rate, but your cars will need that power at specific times of availability, with what will probably along the lines of 6pm to 6am and weekends. Without some sort of power throttling for these high peak power devices, that doubles the effective capacity requirement to your house since you dont get to average power usage to a vehicle that is not at the house.

Then we need to talk about planes trains and automobiles and how we get our "stuff".
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
One thing we really need to do is drop the assumption that all electricity will be delivered by the grid. It is not the present case, so why do we assume it will be in the future?
Bill
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
One thing we really need to do is drop the assumption that all electricity will be delivered by the grid. It is not the present case, so why do we assume it will be in the future?
Bill


Bill,

The only vaguely feasible alternative where I live is solar and it is still prohibitively expensive. I can buy 8,000 KwH from my EMC for less than $1,000. A solar system that is capable of fully recharging two electric passenger vehicles overnight is probably twenty or thirty times that much. No way I will live long enough to justify that level of investment.
 
Last edited:

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Keep in mind that one is an expense and the other an investment. Also, if you charge everyday you will rarely need to fully charge, especially fully charge two cars in one night. Just buy enough recharging stuff to top off daily and plan on paying EMC when needing to fully recharge (are you sure a 50% charge would not do?) over night.

Bill
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
As I think about "things" the more I am determined that my friend Barry's comment about refilling is not cogent. As I look back over the past 40 years of married life when we were a two car family, I cannot recall a single event when it was necessary to fill both cars on the same occasion. There were times that both cars were distressingly empty, but no need to be filled. Five gallons apiece would have sufficed. That was when were not in the average family mileage range, annual mileage probably was in the range of 30,00 - 40,000 miles.

Bill
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
There is a car channel i watch and enjoy , "carfection" with Henry Catchpole.

He's not the greatest fan of the electric cars he reviews... And his review of the posrche "taycan turbo s" (i personally hate how "turbo" is applied to non turbo things... Cars.. Sunglasses.. Pens.. Rant over) had many good commentss about its performance ..but raised many issues re: driver engagement and the tech of the car...

What was interesting is this week he reviewed the new base Taycan .. And was very positive.. But the range and charge part was interesting... As was his take on how traditonal car enthusiasts look at new car tech... I recomend watching the whole thing...

As a statistic.. At the charging ststion it charged at a rate of 4.2 miles per minute

But if you cant be ar$ed ...
07:10 - 9:00 Charging

 

Aladin Sane

Diamond Level Sponsor
Sorry, I am not going to embrace the inconvenience of charging an electric vehicle as somehow rewarding . I found that part of the review ridiculous.
 

hartmandm

Moderator
Diamond Level Sponsor
The real annoyance will be my family members that will treat the electric vehicle like their cell phone. Don't worry about the charge level. Don't bother to plug it in. Don't realize the thing is not charged until we are leaving the house and are already late for wherever we need to go. :)
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
The real annoyance will be my family members that will treat the electric vehicle like their cell phone. Don't worry about the charge level. Don't bother to plug it in. Don't realize the thing is not charged until we are leaving the house and are already late for wherever we need to go. :)
Hahahha... Or stopping half way on a journey to borrow someone else charge :p
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Sorry, I am not going to embrace the inconvenience of charging an electric vehicle as somehow rewarding . I found that part of the review ridiculous.
I think the point he was making was with all emerging tech there are always inconveniences and trade offs.. And embracing some niggels for other positives can be ok....
Given our hobby of driving old cars and either striving to keep original or upgrading them for performance we go through all sorts of hastle... And any normal car would outperform our sunbeams and be more comfortable reliable etc.. But we do it for a certain experience.

What i would point you to was the charging speed.... I was shocked (pardon the pun) at how fast that Porsche charged.... Thats a long way from the early plug in charge and its only going to get faster.
 

bobbo

Gold Level Sponsor
I want to be the first to buy a pass for the Electric Daytona 500. How long will a pit stop be to re-charge?
 
Top