• Welcome to the new SAOCA website. Already a member? Simply click Log In/Sign Up up and to the right and use your same username and password from the old site. If you've forgotten your password, please send an email to membership@sunbeamalpine.org for assistance.

    If you're new here, click Log In/Sign Up and enter your information. We'll approve your account as quickly as possible, typically in about 24 hours. If it takes longer, you were probably caught in our spam/scam filter.

    Enjoy.

Hard Starting and hotter spark plugs

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
My SV has always been hard to start; yesterday it just refused. Wires are new, spark plugs have less than 100 miles on them and are a light tan. Head gasket new, valves adjusted and rechecked. Pertronix Distributor and an internally ballasted Coil. Weber 32/36, manual choke. Timing correct according to my timing light. New gas, electric pump that works and clear filter. Now, the pistons I recently found out are flat top which apparently are not stock. I just replaced the PCV valve and the car started then and ran very well It was cold yesterday and the car gets worse the colder it gets. I run the recommended spark plugs and use NGK.
I once heard a mechanic tell a customer that if there is spark and on time plus getting gas it has to start.
There is no way these cars could have been sold being this hard to start. Something is off; is it that pistons? Flat top with unmodified head would mean high compression but mine is 150ish across the board WOT tested.
Am thinking of going one heat range hotter on the plugs, Since I do no freeway driving and no long distance driving, it seems the burnt piston risk might be small.
Please, any thoughts?
 

Mike O'D

Gold Level Sponsor
I don't believe the heat range of the spark plug will affect starting at all. It looks like heat range is all about operating temperature. Too cool and it won't burn off the carbon build up and too hot and it may cause detonation. Timing is correct - according to the manual? Advanced timing can make it really hard to start. Choke closes all the way? I now have an internally ballasted coil, and my car starts pretty easily. However, I think it actually started better with the coil with external ballast and the bypass for starting. Compression of 150 is low according to the manual, so I wouldn't think that's the problem.
 

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
I tried the external ballast a while back and couldn't see any change. I am also wondering if the starter is in poor enough condition that it is sucking all the juice. It doesn't crank very fast. Hate to go there unless I am completely out of ideas since it is a triangulated beatch to do. I doubt it is that tho since I went to the Pertronix years ago because of the starting issues. I just am beginning to think that who ever went to flat tops with the car may have also fooled around with the cam since it does idle a bit bumpy. Haven't measured the lift, not sure how with my magnetic dial indicator base. I thought of the plugs because with my racing Spitfire we put in hot plugs to warm it up then changed to cold to race. Forgot once when late to the grid to replace them and melted the top of a piston; oops. But then we were running 7600 to 8k also.
This car is so darned simple that it is driving me crazy that I can't figure it out.
Thanks for the reply.
 

sunalp

Diamond Level Sponsor
How is your battery? If it's not getting the juice to the starter that may be the culprit. Or it may
be the starter itself. Try turning on your lights and turn the key to engage the starter. If the lights
really dim it's probably the battery.
 

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
Good thought. Checked it out and it is fine. Little stuff like that always gets overlooked; thank you for suggesting it.
 

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
How is your battery? If it's not getting the juice to the starter that may be the culprit. Or it may
be the starter itself. Try turning on your lights and turn the key to engage the starter. If the lights
really dim it's probably the battery.
Battery is newer. I went out and checked it again on the multimeter. Looked okay (didn't do the light thing, they are not working right now. Think a wire is off, just don't have the energy to climb under the dash and sort it out right now. Sigh)
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I have to wonder if it is a fueling problem. The fact the problem is worse in colder weather makes me suspecus. Please try a teaspoon of gasoline down the carb(s) prior to starting and see if it helps.

Bill
 

pruyter

Donation Time
Sluggish starting can be caused by a ground(earth) wire which is not in good order or not connected or badly connected to the chassis. This wire is connected between the gearbox and the chassis.

Regards,

Peter
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Tracy, that mechanic was correct. If you have gas and spark (at the right time), it will run. What have you done to verify it's getting gas and getting spark ?

From your description it sounds like NOTHING is happening. No "almost " start, but just crank crank crank and nothing. Is that correct?

If so, sounds like either no spark or no gas. Gas is easy to check look down the carb bore and step on the gas ( or push or pull the linkage by hand) and see if gas squirts into the bore.

Electric: I would measure the voltage at the coil with the key on, just to confirm that it's getting 12 V. Check both terminals on the coil, since one of the terminals go to the dizzyy and may be grounded depending on position of crank. The fact that your lights don't work already tells me something is amiss in the wiring.

Once you have verified 12 V at the coil verify that you have spark from the coil. pull the coil wire from the dizzy cap and place the tip very near, but not touching, the engine block . Turn the key to Start and see of there is spark at the tip of the wire.

If the coil is producing spark, the verify the spark is getting to the plugs. Pull one plug wire off , put a thin screwdriver up into the plug wire rubber insulator so it makes contact with the metal connector. Hold (or place) the screwdriver near one of the valve cover nuts and turn the key to Start. and see if you get a spark there. .

Tom
 

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
I know you said you checked the timing, but, though everything was new and checked, my car would not start and was slow to crank (new battery). Turned out the timing was actually off. I would have bet that it was dead on. Once corrected it cranked fast and started right up. I don’t remember if retarded or advanced timing causes slow cranking, might have to Google that one, but it might be worth checking.

Note: this was occurring on my V6, but I would think the concept would be the same.
 

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
Thank you for the replies. Went through most of it, except timing and checking the coil; that's next, and all was fine. Got it started after trying again for about 2 to 4 minutes of cranking and fooling with the choke. Ran it's normal cold way, bumpy and won't idle for a while then reluctantly will. Have moved the idle up to help that. Something is still wrong; it's not like its 20 below or anything, was just the low 40's in an enclosed garage. I will do the coil thing this weekend; that just sounds right. I feel that there is just not enough getting to the plugs to ignite the cold fuel. Many thanks, will let you all know what I find, if anything.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Tracy, more and more you are describing an engine that is running lean when cold. I would hazard a guess that it is running a bit lean even when warm.

Bill
 

hartmandm

Moderator
Diamond Level Sponsor
PCV issues will cause poor idle. One test would be to plug the PCV. Disconnect the vent hose, plug the PCV, let the hose attached to the PCV vent towards the ground.

Mike
 

Tim R

Silver Level Sponsor
You say in the original post that you have a weber 32/36 and a PCV (PCD). Which manifold do you have? The PCV was introduced on the Series V and went into the shared chamber on the inlet manifold so that it was split between all 4 cylinders. If you have it going to a single inlet channel in the manifold you are effectively trying to start and run the car on 3 cylinders with one running very lean.
In the UK the owners club developed a new manifold and had the PCV going to just one chamber. It would make my Automatic stall routinely and we couldn't work out what was wrong.
We took the car to a rolling road and it was diagnosed within 2 minutes as being the PCV causing all of the problems. Once that was blocked off the car ran superbly. The 'club manifold' is now sold with a blanking plug and the PCV is not generally used, or is used ielsewhere in the system. The video below is from The Sunbeam Alpine Channel on YouTube (please subscribe if you haven't done so, it is a resource for ALL Alpine owners) and shows the car at the rolling road.

Tim R

 

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill, I have wondered about that and Mike, I am going to try that. It could be that the PVC is not working and it is not sealing at idle. I have a new one in now but who knows if it works with this car.
Oh, went out yesterday and it started on the button. Strange. Given the long history of starting issues though, I still think there is something off.
 

Eleven

Platinum Level Sponsor
Disconnected the PCV and plugged the intake manifold (which was set in a plenum chamber directly under the Carb.. Rerouted the sideplate hose to point down. Ran the car around town and it performed fine. I think I need to readjust the carb to account for the PCV not being there but it started easily. Wonder if all this time that was it??? Thank you all for your help!
Am looking at the video and thanks for the tip on that.
 

Tim R

Silver Level Sponsor
In the UK many (probably most) of us that run single Weber carbs do away with the PCV completely.

Tim R
 
Top