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Rootes group engine identify ?

Bobs66SBA

Donation Time
Hi New member with an Rootes Group engine that I need to identify. I have a 1966 Sunbeam Alpine that I purchased recently, a series V (project car) that has been off the road and in a barn since 1972 with some work done that needs to be finished and put back together. The engine was rebuilt and is supposedly a 1725 (not running), now the delema... the engine number stamped on the block is not the same as the vin# of the car. Now I am told the previous owner replaced the engine as the original had a broken crankshaft, and that he rebuilt this engine before placing it in the car. However the engine # does not appear to be a Sunbeam Alpine Engine number. My question to the group is this, can anyone out there help me identify this Rootes Group engine #B21106389 LSX with the letter H stamped below the engine # Any help you can give me to identify what this engine originally came in from the factory and any specs on it would be greatly appreciated. Thank You New Member Bob in Atkinson, New Hampshire USA
 

volvoguys

Diamond Level Sponsor
Engines with the prefix B211 were designated for Hillman Husky IIIa - 1390cc with cast iron cylinder head.
 

Bobs66SBA

Donation Time
Rootes Group Engine Identity

Thank you for your reply. I certainly hope that is not the case as I purchased this car from a long time friend that I trusted, I guess I will have to drop the sump to see how many main bearings there are in it, I was told that it was a five main bearing engine which was a 1725 ? I will let you know what I find ! Thanks again for your input, I appreciate it. Bob in NH USA
 

mikephillips

Donation Time
If the dipstick goes into the block, 5 main 1725, if it goes into the pan via a tube, then 3 main other size. While not absolutely definitive since there could be a mix of parts or alterations, this will probably be correct.
 

Bobs66SBA

Donation Time
Help identifying this engine ?

Hi guys sorry for the delay in responding to your posts in regards to my question on the identity of this engine. Mike is correct the dipstick goes into the oil pan, not the block. Ken asked about #s cast on the block under the manifolds, there is a number # 1987010 now the third digit could be an "8" or a "B" it was kind of hard to make out with my old eyes and glasses and the angle that I was looking at it ? Also since having a conversation with the fellow that I bought the car from it is clearly a different engine that he put in there that he had bought from a guy that at one time raced these cars, and he himself not being familier with Sunbeam cars kind of got snookered I guess ? Anyway that is his story to me and this was all done a long time ago and he is 80 years old and can`t remember exactly what he did when he put it together, there is a cam in the spare parts but which one he used who knows ? It appears to be a 1390 out of a Hillman Husky IIIa rebuilt and bored .020 over with an Alpine aluminum head off of a 1725 on it and who knows whats in it for a camshaft ? I am going to try to start it and get it to run just to see if it will run ? I do have a spare engine out of a series IV that I could put in it, even though it would not be correct, it could be made a driver again. I may consider modifying it with a different engine and transmissin conversion. The seller also said that he remembers junking the original 1725 engine block with a broken crankshaft in it when an old shed he had a lot of parts stored in collapsed. I guess old cars that are taken apart and sit in barns for 2 or 3 decades waiting for someone like me to drag them out into the daylight with plans of getting them back on the road again come with a bit of mystery to them don`t they ? As the journey continues so does the challenge. Thanks for the info guys I appreciate your help ! Bob in NH
 

Bobs66SBA

Donation Time
help identify this engine

Now that is an interesting article, so it could be a 1592 engine instead of a 1390, I guess the mystery continues for the time being. Like I said earlier I am going to see if it will start and run, just for the fun of it. I really hate to take it apart to identify it, but in the end I may have to. Thank you for the info and your interest in helping me find the answer. Bob in NH
 

lemansvk

Donation Time
Bob,

Since my last post I contacted someone in the USA who has a period Husky Series 3 brochure, it definitely says 1592 engine for the USA. It can be hard to track down what previous owners have done with cars and why. My own Alpine Series 3 has a block from a Super Minx - same 1592 capacity, but originally fitted with iron head. The original Alpine block had internally corroded and was leaking coolant through the bore into one cylinder. I was given the bare Super Minx block and just rebuilt it using the bits from my car. I know of two Alpines in Canberra that have Hillman Hunter (Sunbeam Arrow) iron head blocks (rebuilt with the alloy head bits).

Cheers, Vic
 

Bobs66SBA

Donation Time
help identify this engine

Hi Vic Thank you for your responce. This gets more interesting all the time here, more information, more interesting. Yes the history on this particular Alpine is really vague, it is a 1966 showing 49,000+ miles on the odometer yet it hasn`t been on the road since 1972-1973 and the original engine had a broken crankshaft and it had some minor body damage on the left rear of the trunk (boot lid) purchased by the guy I got it from a body repair shop with the broken crankshaft at least 20 plus years ago. In reading your message I had to laugh because part of the deal includes a Hillman Super Minx parts car with engine and transmission, actually it was a running driving automobile when he got it, it is now apart, engine & tranny out, but I have it all. So it sounds like the engine in the Alpine now should be the 1592 how interesting. I can`t wait for the opportunity to get into this thing and see just what I have here. Unfortunately I only have a one car garage and it is presently tied up with another project with no room for the Alpine. So the Alpine is outside covered up waiting it`s turn in the garage for the winter months. When everything else gets put in storage for the winter. I have plenty of parts and more than a few options I guess. I have also been reading on the forum with great interest about the V6 conversion which gives me another alternative if needed. Thanks again Bob in NH USA
 

Bobs66SBA

Donation Time
Update on the mystery engine in my 66 series V Alpine. Still not sure exactly what it is ? However I did get it started and it does run ? I didn`t run it long as the radiator is not in the car and no alternator, so no fan belt either. However I did shut it off and start it several times and it ran smooth at idle, a bit rough above idle. Now I need to find some time to tinker with it some more and fix a pretty good oil leak from the left front of the oil pan where it meets the block. But it does start and run ! Bob in NH
 

RootesRooter

Donation Time
According to the SAOC Members Handbook, your engine, starting with # B211 is (as Volvoguys wrote) a 1390 from a Series IIIa Husky. Rootes apparently stuck with the 1390 until the end of the Audax-bodied Husky production in 1965.
 

Bobs66SBA

Donation Time
1390 or 1592 that is the question ? Usually numbers do tell the true story, however it seems that all Hillman Husky series IIIa`s imported to the USA had 1592 engines in them ? I guess the only way to really know the truth is to pull the head off and check the size of the cylinder bore and at some point I will do that. Although I hate to tear down an engine just to find out what it is, but that looks like my only option. I would like to find a 1725 engine in the New England area for sale ? The V6 conversion route has also gotten my attention and interest. The curiousity is killing me. Who really knows what previous owners have done to a 45 year old British sports car ? Thank you for your input and interest I do appreciate it ! Bob in NH
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
1592 engines have a "1600" cast into the NA drivers side.
1390s and 1494s do not.

I assume this is an iron head motor?
1390s never came with alloy head and it would take some real cobbling to combine 1390 and 1592 oil pump and cam bits to put an alloy head on a 1390.
 

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Well, you could remove the plug on one cylinder, and see if 390.5cc of your favorite motor oil will fit in the combustion chamber (BDC). If it starts coming out after you get to 347.5cc, then its a 1390. Fill quickly enough that it doesn't have time to leak past the rings, but slowly enough you can stop at the plug hole, and not backfill any open valves... (though I think you can probably get them both closed?)

Anyway, the precise measurements probably won't be achieved. But I think you'll be able to tell 350 vs. 390 cc.

Use a bulb "sucker" to remove the bulk of it before starting, of course. And something over the plug hole if you elect to crank out the remainder!
 

volvoguys

Diamond Level Sponsor
I have to admit I'm somewhat puzzled why all the effort is being made to find out what this engine is. The stamping of B211 clearly designates the car it was intended for, it's capacity and the cylinder head it should have. Even tho it eventually found it's way into a Series V and had the iron head swapped for an aluminum it's still a Husky 1390. Sure, someone in the past could have re-bored it .20 over (doubtful) but it's identify remains. I don't see the mystery here.

Mark ..... volvoguys
 

Bobs66SBA

Donation Time
I apologise if I have aggrevated anyone with this post, that certainly is not my intent. I am just curious, and I have recieved some conflicting information from others, just curious thats all, no big deal. The true story on this engine in this car is kind of fuzzy and not being familier with the Rootes Group line of cars and engines I asked for help. I guess I got what I asked for and I will just have to accept it as that. I thank you all for your help and suggestions ! Bob in NH
 

lemansvk

Donation Time
Mark,

While the engine number certainly indicates this block was from a Series 3 Husky, it appears that not all Series 3 Huskys had the 1390 motor. As I stated in one of my earlier posts, the original brochure and parts book for the US market Series 3 Husky state it came with a 1592 engine. This data was supplied to me by Jan Eyerman from the US, a long term Hillman owner, collector and historian. Here are his exact words:

OK, I have a USA sales brochure for the Hillman Husky (series III) and it lists the engine size as 1592cc. Next, I have the Rootes Hillman Husky and Commer Cob parts manual for the Series I-II-III and it has TWO engine sections. The first is for the "Engine (Motor) Unit-Series I, II & III
(1390cc)" and the second is "Engine (Motor) Unit-Series II & III (1600cc)".
Under the "1600" engine it lists "N. America" (North America) and "Norway".


Thus, while there is no doubt that UK market (and most other markets) S3 Huskys had the 1390 - from factory literature it is certain that the US (and apparently Norway) had 1592s.

Cheers, Vic

I have to admit I'm somewhat puzzled why all the effort is being made to find out what this engine is. The stamping of B211 clearly designates the car it was intended for, it's capacity and the cylinder head it should have. Even tho it eventually found it's way into a Series V and had the iron head swapped for an aluminum it's still a Husky 1390. Sure, someone in the past could have re-bored it .20 over (doubtful) but it's identify remains. I don't see the mystery here.

Mark ..... volvoguys
 

RootesRooter

Donation Time
Vic, the parts books make a good case for the 1592. Wikipedia and the sales brochures you mentioned earlier I take with a grain of salt.
 

lemansvk

Donation Time
Vic, the parts books make a good case for the 1592. Wikipedia and the sales brochures you mentioned earlier I take with a grain of salt.

I agree that the quality of information in Wikipedia is not always reliable and I sort of referred to that in my initial post. However, the Husky article is referenced and appears to be accurate in other respects. I'm not sure why the sales brochure should be doubted - it's a factory issued document.

There seems to be a common belief that the chassis/engine number relates to a specific engine configuration. It doesn't - it relates to the make and model, from which the engine configuration is inferred. I'll give a specific example.

In most markets, the Vogue model was sold as a Singer - in Australia it was sold as a Humber - but Australian Humber Vogues still had matching chassis/engine numbers, which identify them as Singer Vogues built for CKD export. http://www.team.net/www/rootes/chassis.html . During the Mk 2 Vogue period, Rootes Australia introduced a Humber Vogue Sports model - equipped with the Rapier/Sceptre alloy head engine instead of the iron head engine used in all other Vogues. These cars still had matching chassis/engine numbers prefixed B728, indicating they were CKD export Singer Vogues. If you checked one of those numbers against the Chassis number page (above) you would assume it was an iron head car.

Similarly if I gave you the engine prefix B715 you would assume this to be a Singer Gazelle IIIC. Except in Australia, this prefix is found in a car called the Hillman Australian Deluxe - with Hillman grille and badges and no sign of the word Singer anywhere.

Cheers, Vic
 
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