New Paint with fish eye......

[DanR]

Any experts out there able to explain how or why my "new" paint job has Fish Eye ?

At first I thought it was dust.

At closer exam, I can see tiny holes. The holes vary only slightly in size, Definitely "holes" and not raised areas.

The metal was prepped, sanded, primed, sanded, wet sanded, washed several times. drying over night and hand rubbed again, sealed, painted several coats and up to this point all was well, sprayed clear coat and started noticing the dust particles only they were not dust particles, they were small round holes called fish eyes......

Now what ?

 

[Toyanvil]

I have only seen that happen when WD40 was sprayed within 20 feet of primer.

 

[alpine_64]

Dan, i would think somehow some moisture .. A friend had this micro blistering on his car about 1 year after it was painted when he left it outside under a car cover for a couple of nights.

 

[husky drvr]

Dan,

"One of those" episodes at work - related during annual training - involved a fab line welder who brought in an unapproved silicone spray for his personal use. The over spray from his usage got on the bare steel and wasn't removed during prep for paint (included a phosphoric solution pressure wash). Lots of little fish eyes was the result. We were told it took awhile before the source of the problem was discovered.

Good luck,

 

[Gordon Holsinger]

Any experts out there able to explain how or why my "new" paint job has Fish Eye ?

At first I thought it was dust.

At closer exam, I can see tiny holes. The holes vary only slightly in size, Definitely "holes" and not raised areas.

The metal was prepped, sanded, primed, sanded, wet sanded, washed several times. drying over night and hand rubbed again, sealed, painted several coats and up to this point all was well, sprayed clear coat and started noticing the dust particles only they were not dust particles, they were small round holes called fish eyes......

Now what ?

The metal or the substrate was contaminated with something. Silicone spray is bad news around prepared surfaces. Sometimes too much humidity can create problems picked up by the compressor because of moisture in the tank.

 

[sunalp]

Dan,
What you have there isn't fish eye. Fish eyes are caused by oil that's mixed in with the air supplied
by the compressor. I'm assuming. of course, that your compressor has the right kind of filter on it
that will remove the oil and moisture from the air. Even if you have that filter on the compressor, it needs
to be emptied and cleaned before, and sometimes during (humidity is a large factor) the painting process.
Of course if it doesn't have the filter, that's your issue.

What I think you may have there is solvent pop. It's especially something that happens with base/clear paint jobs.
It's one of those things that even if you adhere to the product spec sheet can be difficult to control. It occurs when
a coat of clear is laid down and the solvent hasn't completely dissipated. Some of the gas gets trapped in between
the first coat and the second causing the paint to pop through the second layer while it dries, causing little craters
in the finish. Depending on what clear you use and how many coats you put on it might be able to be sanded out.
Worst case you sand it out and re-clear the effected areas.

One question. Did you catalyze your base coat?

Cheers!
Steve

 

[Bill Blue]

Steve, while in general agreement with your post, I must say it appears to me the craters are in not the second coat, but the base coat and appear to go down to primer. Wouldn't that mean that the second coat reacted with the base coat?

Bill

 

[sunalp]

Bill, It's possible but from the picture showing the defect I see light reflected at the bottom of
the pit. Could be my eyes, but that's what I see. Waiting to hear about compressor filtration.
Cheers!
Steve

 

[jumpinjan]

I would do some testing on some test panels by spraying out the same clearcoat material. Spray-out on some clean aluminum sheet metal or some spray-out test paper.
I wonder if the base color still has solvents escaping?
Jan

 

[Bill Blue]

Steve, but I see little, if any, color at the bottom of the pit. What I see is a pit, going beyond the color, but with a pin head of color in the bottom. Might be the lighting. We need a photo taken so we are looking directly into a pit, not at an angle. Maybe Dan can tell us what we are looking at.
Bill

 

[sunalp]

I agree Bill, need better pictures!
Good advice Jan, could be the base as well.
Steve

 

[DanR]

Here's a few more PIC's and hopefully some explanation....

1st two PICs are identical sections of the Boot Lid. The difference you see will be a shift or change in the angle of the shot. In one it appears the primer/Sealer/base coat has holes but that is not correct, just a reflection caused by or from the clear coat.

The third PIC is the complete hood after we did some water sanding with 600 grit. The clear is definitely hard. WE are attempting to get rid of the fish eye or at least most of the small holes with intent of respraying.

In the 4th & 5th PIC's we sanded the area with 600 grit and got it down fairly smooth. The fish eyes are reduced to near flat/smooth near even with the red paint. A close up of the top left area will show two shots at a slightly different angle and in one as before the holes look as if the paint is gone and even the sealer perhaps could be missing but not so it is only a reflection. The red paint is there. The clear coat has the holes.

In the next to last PIC Lou can be seen spraying the hood with the red paint. It took evenly/covered nicely, no dust/no water/no runs etc. AND especially NO FISH EYES.... the hood is again shown in last picture immediately after Lou applied the red (time lapse of course for some drying) where the clear coat has been applied AND the Fish Eyes are quite evident. There was no dust/no water or other foreign matter introduced.

Lou says he has something that can be mixed in to eliminate the fish eyes.

Hope we can get a good covering without the fish eyes.

 

[DanR]

I would do some testing on some test panels by spraying out the same clearcoat material. Spray-out on some clean aluminum sheet metal or some spray-out test paper.
I wonder if the base color still has solvents escaping?
Jan

Jan, Lou and I paid a visit to the NAPA Dealer for some advice and perhaps a few answers.

Immediately denied it was any thing wrong with the paint/clear coat etc. It had to be water/dust/oil/etc....

We eliminated any of that at least in our minds for now.

We asked why they recommended a cheap clear than what they were now offering as a solution? Nothing there as for a fair explanation.

If a cheaper product was as good why a higher priced one if there was no difference is results?

Ask for the test panel(s). They did not stock. Went to the local FORD Dealer Paint Shop who was more than generous with providing a couple.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[DanR]

I wonder if the base color still has solvents escaping?

Would you be so kind as to explain "solvents escaping" ?

 

[DanR]

I have only seen that happen when WD40 was sprayed within 20 feet of primer.

John, There was nothing utilized even similar to WD40 for over a month in the shop. Then, everything in the shop has been isolated from the paint area.

 

[DanR]

Dan, i would think somehow some moisture .. A friend had this micro blistering on his car about 1 year after it was painted when he left it outside under a car cover for a couple of nights.

Michael, Constantly cleaning the compressor lines. Have filters cleaned and or replaced frequently. Water taps are opened many times daily, just in case there is any build up. Use a filter on the spray gun too!

 

[DanR]

The metal or the substrate was contaminated with something. Silicone spray is bad news around prepared surfaces. Sometimes too much humidity can create problems picked up by the compressor because of moisture in the tank.

GOrdon, DOn't have any idea how if any silicone could be present.

The metal on this Alpine was cleaned and preped over three years ago. All of the basic body work was completed such as replacement panels and straightening then primed. I might add here that the total Alpine was gone over with sanding and priming again just as if it was a totally new preparation.

I washed the Alpine completely with water at least five times after the final sanding to get rid of any dust. It dried over night in a heated shop.

I've addressed the moisture possibilities as none existent for the time being. Filters are either new or serviced accordingly. There is no indication that water is present. Humidity is a possibility but not a probability. Something to further exam.....

 

[Bill Blue]

Dan, the old clear coat does not have to be perfect if your respraying clear coat. I recoated CC that was pebbled like a basketball, also some that had been sanded with 100 grit, the finish coat was perfect in each. Glad to see you've found a workable answer to your problem.
Bill

 

[absunbeam]

Dan- My painter used surface cleaner FT200 with paper towel to wipe down. He would do this even before putting primer on bare metal to ensure a good bond. Very time consuming but the results paid off. I’m sure you did this but the most important one is the last prep wipe. Did you seal coat before color coat? Fish eye has always been the biggest pain when painting!

 

[sunalp]

Dan,
Not fish eyes or surface contamination. Sand that with 800 grit and recoat the clear. You'll be fine.
Cheers!
Steve