Waterless Coolant

[Alpine 1789]

I just watched the latest episode of Wheeler Dealers, where they bought and sold a TR6. One of the things they did as part of fixing up the car was replace the coolant with waterless coolant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-NfA17q0MQ). The claim is that waterless coolant prevents overheating, increases gas mileage, has a wider temperature band, doesn't pressurize the system and prevents the rust-based wear and tear caused by the water in a standard system. Oh, and it is guaranteed for the life of the engine. The only downside seems to be the cost, currently about $45/gallon. It all sounded pretty convincing and a little quick Googling tells me that it was Evans Waterless Coolant (http://www.evanscooling.com/) they use and that Jay Leno uses it in some of his cars for years (http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extras/car-care/waterless-engine-coolant/index.shtml).

It all seems pretty impressive. I wish I had known about this when I replaced my head last year, but I am thinking about switching over to it now. Has anyone here used this or know more about it?

Thanks.

 

[Stephen]

I was just about to post same I looked at web seems interesting

 

[puff4]

Funny that this should come up, because this is what I'd been planning to try out in my Alpine to prevent the corrosion of the head, water pump and thermostat housing and silting up of the block and to keep the engine cooler and the heater core from expanding - all of which are chronic Alpine issues.

Also, it says it provides up to 27% better cooling than standard water+antifreeze mix, which I am hoping very much will prevent #4 cylinder from the damage (pitting) from pre-ignition that we are becoming so familiar with in older Alpines, particularly the SV models.

One of the oldest distributors for the Evans product is right nearby and they have good pricing on it (though it's still bloody expensive)...

https://www.armyjeepparts.net/p-2419-evans-waterless-engine-coolant-npgc.aspx

The product was designed from the same stuff they use for cooling fluid in food-related situations (propylene glycol), where poisonous ethylene glycol is banned.

I think I'll head over there today to pick up a couple of gallons, since with this new publicity they'll probably be a run on the stuff.

 

[Nickodell]

I believe this stuff is propylene glycol, a substance in wide use in industry in cooling plants, and also found in small amounts in consumer products.

The only doubts I have from a scientific point of view are that it has a much smaller specific heat (the amount of heat required to raise a given amount by a given temperatue rise, and hence the ability of the coolant to carry away engine heat.)

Water has a spec. ht. of 4.18 J/(g.K), while propylene glycol's is only 2.47. So I fear that the stuff will have a much lower cooling ability than water, or water/glycol mix. I know that it boils at a much higher temperature, which offsets this disadvantage somewhat, but I am also doubtful whether running our engines at 250 degrees or so will not cause damage, especially to valves, seals and springs, and threaten head warping. It also throws much more heat rejection onto the oil, raising its temperature and threatening breakdown in lubrication.

 

[puff4]

Nick, I think it is *based* on PG, but is not actually PG. In fact, they claim this stuff actually cools as much as 27% better than the normal water/coolant mix.

I suspect this is due to the much higher boiling point... because of this, it does not develop tiny air bubbles on the cooling jacket's inner surfaces (which act as an insulating layer) and instead the product stays wetted to the jacket, thereby enhancing heat transfer and removal.

In fact, one of the selling points of this product for over-the-road diesels is that their cooling fans don't have to run as often, saving money/fuel in the long run.

 

[RootesRacer]

I have a local guy that uses this stuff in his "contemporised" 40 flathead ford.

Engine runs much hotter but since it has a boiling point above 300f at 1 ATM its not overheating. He had to change out the temp gauge to go to 300F though.

Anyone who says the stuff cools better than water is an idiot or a liar.
The only thing it does better than water is not boil so easily (and offer corrosion resistance).


EDIT: Btw, one can make the claim it does cool better than water if they account for the fact that a higher temp difference between the coolant and ambient, can in fact have a lower radiator differential temp, but you still have to run the radiator at 250F+ to get this.

 

[puff4]

I spoke with their engineer a few minutes ago.

He explained that the coolant they recommend, NPG+c (high performance coolant) is a mix of both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol, and it offers similar heat removal and dispersal rates to conventional coolant. The vendor explains that the reason the temperature gauge may read higher after installing the coolant is because the coolant is more efficient at removing the heat from the block, and therefore that's why the gauge reads higher. He further noted that if you used a heat gun and measured the actual block temperature you'd find that it runs at the proper manufacturer's temp.

He did concede that it is not quite as efficient at releasing/disbursing the heat as conventional water-based coolant would be, and that your fans may run more often if you want to keep that outlet temp at 180 degrees, for example, but that since it does not boil over that should not be an issue.

 

[RootesRacer]

I spoke with their engineer a few minutes ago.

He explained that the coolant they recommend, NPG+c (high performance coolant) is a mix of both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol, and it offers similar heat removal and dispersal rates to conventional coolant. The vendor explains that the reason the temperature gauge may read higher after installing the coolant is because the coolant is more efficient at removing the heat from the block, and therefore that's why the gauge reads higher. He further noted that if you used a heat gun and measured the actual block temperature you'd find that it runs at the proper manufacturer's temp.

He did concede that it is not quite as efficient at releasing/disbursing the heat as conventional water-based coolant would be, and that your fans may run more often if you want to keep that outlet temp at 180 degrees, for example, but that since it does not boil over that should not be an issue.

Avoid, this guy is blowing smoke.

The thermal conductivity of water or even 50/50 water glycol is superior to to any mixture of ethylene or polypropylene glycol alone.

As mentioned before, cars that are designed to use this stuff can expect to run hotter simply becuase in order to get the same cooling rad temp deltas, you have to run a higher cooling to ambient delta.

New cars that use this are running much higher temp thermostats for this reason.

Caveat em-tor.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Thanks guys. This was the discussion I was hoping for, although not as clear cut as I would have liked. I doubt I will be trying this in the near future, but will be curious to hear from anyone here who does give it a go in the meantime.

 

[Bill Blue]

I may have missed something, but it seems this stuff could be useful in a car that does not see heavy use. If it preserves an aluminum head that would make it worthwhile.

Bill

 

[puff4]

I may have missed something, but it seems this stuff could be useful in a car that does not see heavy use. If it preserves an aluminum head that would make it worthwhile.

Bill

Yes, exactly my point, Bill. Heads are getting thin on the ground and every one we can preserve is a gift. And although I'm sure there are those who do, I doubt many of us drive our Sunbeams daily, and quite a few don't even drive them weekly. Here in the northeast I'd bet a fair number spend the winter slumbering for the most part. That's deadly on the head and alloy water pump and thermostat housings, not to mention the iron bits.

I'm all about preservation, particularly as I want to pass these cars onto my sons in good condition and with a long potential for enjoyment ahead of them. I'm going to try this stuff and see how it goes - if it truly does prevent the corrosion and still cool the car, it's a step forward in that regard.

 

[RootesRacer]

Yes, exactly my point, Bill. Heads are getting thin on the ground and every one we can preserve is a gift. And although I'm sure there are those who do, I doubt many of us drive our Sunbeams daily, and quite a few don't even drive them weekly. Here in the northeast I'd bet a fair number spend the winter slumbering for the most part. That's deadly on the head and alloy water pump and thermostat housings, not to mention the iron bits.

I'm all about preservation, particularly as I want to pass these cars onto my sons in good condition and with a long potential for enjoyment ahead of them. I'm going to try this stuff and see how it goes - if it truly does prevent the corrosion and still cool the car, it's a step forward in that regard.

Dont get me wrong Kevin, the stuff is not bad, its just not going to cool the engine as well as water/glycol. The crux of my comments is that the guy you were talking to is misrepresenting the product. If you think buying it will fix an overheating issue, it will not.

The comment that was most laughable was:

The vendor explains that the reason the temperature gauge may read higher after installing the coolant is because the coolant is more efficient at removing the heat from the block, and therefore that's why the gauge reads higher.

As if the alleged superior heat transfer wouldn't also pertain to the radiators ability to transfer that same heat to the air.

 

[puff4]

Well, I don't have an overheating problem - in fact, I added a radiator with a thicker core many years ago to prevent/eliminate that problem. And, to be fair, the manufacturer's rep said that this stuff will not cure overheating problems, and they recommend it only for cars that have cooling systems in good working order.

 

[socorob]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=6&f=9&t=1187245&nmt=Evans+Waterless+coolant

Google around on pistonheads. There are a few threads about it, especially since October after the wheeler dealers episode. There are a few peoe who have used it with different results.

 

[puff4]

Hmm. I just read that thread, as well as those threads that were linked. In reading, a few folks question the technology and a few others say they 'heard of someone' that used it that didn't get good results... but all of those who posted that *actually* used it - i.e. first-hand reports - all came back saying it worked. In particular, check this related thread from the Cobra forum:

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/shop-talk/54472-evans-coolant-detailed-test-results.html

Sounds like it works to me.

Combine this with the fact that it is highly effective in preventing corrosion - a real problem for Alpine engines - I'm definitely going to try this out in my new motor.

 

[Nickodell]

Dont get me wrong Kevin, the stuff is not bad, its just not going to cool the engine as well as water/glycol. The crux of my comments is that the guy you were talking to is misrepresenting the product. If you think buying it will fix an overheating issue, it will not.

The comment that was most laughable was:

The vendor explains that the reason the temperature gauge may read higher after installing the coolant is because the coolant is more efficient at removing the heat from the block, and therefore that's why the gauge reads higher.

As if the alleged superior heat transfer wouldn't also pertain to the radiators ability to transfer that same heat to the air.

In addition to its lower specific heat, it also has a much lower thermal conductivity than water - 0.21 W/m-K, compared with water's 0.90.

Common sense says that the reason the temp. gauge reads higher is the opposite of the vendor's asssertion; propylene glycol is much worse at transferring heat from the block and head, and the radiator to the air. Running the temperature much higher - 250F or more - will compensate somewhat for that, but at what cost to engine components?

 

[puff4]

Well, Nick, all I can say is read user's experiences with the stuff. The great majority of *direct* experiences I've read have said the stuff works just fine.

 

[Nickodell]

Which, in the end, is all that matters. I remember, many years ago, one of my physics profs. in college explaining, semi-seriously, how it was easy to prove scientifically that the friction clutch could never work.

 

[pcmenten]

Interesting discussion. I learned something new (the heat transfer stuff). I knew about the specific heat issue, but I was completely unaware of the heat transfer capabilities.

I wouldn't use this stuff in a V6 conversion, but I don't see the problem with trying it in an original 4 cyl Sunbeam.

Here are my contributions; the coefficient of friction between aluminum (as in pistons) and iron is lowest around 220 degrees F. Another reason that the car makers run the engines so hot.

Fully synthetic oil, such as Mobil 1, not Castrol Syntec, have a high vaporization temperature. If you want to run this coolant, you might want to use an oil like Mobil 1, with the silver cap. The full synthetic version. Mobil also makes a synthetic/mineral oil blend. It's good stuff for a lot of applications, but it will have a lower vaporization temperature than the fully synthetic oil.

 

[Nickodell]

Before I hung up my metaphorical goggles a couple of years ago, I'd flown General Aviation (private) since learning to fly in the RAF in 1960, owning a one-third share in several planes, the last being a V-Tail Beech Bonanza. The oil recommended by the two engine manufacturers (Continental and Lycoming) that represent over 95% of GA aircraft power plants was a semi-synthetic. The A & P mechanic who serviced our plane explained the reason why, some years ago, but I've completely forgotten now what it was.